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A Puzzle: Overwhelmed

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mxdplay4

As far as I understand it, there are 8 pieces and 8 pawns on each side. Which makes 16 men.

Each piece eg the Queen, has its own pawn eg the Queen's pawn.

(At the start of the game).


unclemike

We could perhaps make peace if we considered every piece on the chessboard a piece.  In that case a pawn like the rook or any other is a piece.

Pawns have been treated as being so insignificant over the years, that it is about time they are given some kind of recognition.  Aren't we all as chessplayers happy when we promote a pawn to become a queen or whatever.  Is this a case where a non-piece becomes  a piece?

On another note however these type of discussions are always very interesting. If we call the sixteen thingies chessmen and refer to all but the pawns as pieces, then what do we call the pawns?  Pawns I suppose!

By the way, is the king a piece as well?  If it is, is it a minor piece or a major piece.  

Have a peaceful discussion please. 


TheOldReb
I will repeat that the chess glossaries I have checked defined "piece" as : king, queen, rook, bishop, knight . I have not yet found one that defined the pawn as a "piece". In my 30 plus years of tournament chess its also apparent to me that the vast majority of tournament chess players do not consider pawns as a "piece", nor do the books concerning the teaching of chess.
Apoapsis

If a piece has to stop when it hits antother piece, and pawns aren't pieces, then white can captue black's Queen on move 1 because no pieces get in his way.Wink


akis14
likesforests wrote:

On question 1, I think the rook is the one that will control less squares if he is moved.

Question 2, Queen to b4 for check mate. 

 

 

1. (For everyone) Which of White's pieces cannot be moved on this turn to a square where it controls more squares than it currently does?

 

2. (For anyone unrated or rated <= 1200 on chess.com) What's White's best move?


 


fsuforlife21
Creg wrote:

This pieces and pawns thing is a bit of a stickler. By pure definition every piece on a chessboard, pawns included, are in fact pieces. However, it is common practice within teaching circles to separate the more powerful pieces from their minor foot soldiers. How many of us have learned, or heard the phrase "Develop your pieces"? We all know that teachers of the game are not referring to pawns.

The game is complex enough that it is necessary to break it down in such a way so as to teach a beginner. So yes; we can argue until we are blue in the face that the pawns are pieces, but when teaching and working with puzzles even of this type, the term pieces is mainly used to reference anything that is not a pawn.  


Good answer!


alexa
Qd4!
makhluk-aneh
is it really important to discuss whether a pawn is considered as a piece or not?
theplayer
Reb wrote: I will repeat that the chess glossaries I have checked defined "piece" as : king, queen, rook, bishop, knight . I have not yet found one that defined the pawn as a "piece". In my 30 plus years of tournament chess its also apparent to me that the vast majority of tournament chess players do not consider pawns as a "piece", nor do the books concerning the teaching of chess.

If Pawns are not peices what are they? check this out :

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_piece 

http://chess.about.com/cs/reference/g/bldefpaw.htm

http://www.uschess.org/beginners/glossary.php

what are your sources pls... tell us  

 


greyfox

the rook holds as many squares even in the center or in the flank.

 

 


TheOldReb
Yes, we are all entitled to our own "opinions" , but opinions have nothing to do with rules, facts and definitions. If a beginner has a different "opinion" than Kasparov in a given chess position which one is most likely correct? Since the correct answer to the problem is the rook its clear that the author of the problem also doesnt include pawns as "pieces".
spaceman

what a silly argument.

I suppose this is why pawns are promoted into pieces :)


TheOldReb
When you win , or sacrifice a "piece" what have you won or sacrificed?  When chess texts tell you to develop your "pieces" as quickly as possible does this mean pawns to you? If I win a pawn I dont say I have won a "piece" , I say I am a pawn up, if I am a piece up then I am much more than a pawn up. The pawn is used as the basic chess unit worth 1 point. The pieces are all worth 3 points (pawns) or more. If the pawn is a piece to you and you are two pawns up do you say you are two pieces up? I dont think so, but maybe you do?
likesforests

Since you asked, in my opinion, "piece" doesn't include pawns. I did a quick survey of my library and Dvoretsky, Flear, Pandolfini, Pachman, and Silman agree. However, Minev and the FIDE rules do include them. I think it's important to know the general convention... but I agree there's some minor ambiguity.

 

Credit is due to anyone who realized on their own that a rook is different than a bishop, knight, queen, or king with respect to centralization.


TheOldReb
I think if you did a survey of all fide titled players more than 90% would agree that a pawn is not a "piece".  Hotflow, do you play otb tournament chess ? If you win a pawn do you say you have won a piece? Do you own any books on chess? Do any of them stress the development of your pieces? If so, do you think moving pawns is developing? I see moving pawns as an aid to developing pieces and as necessary since only knights can be developed without moving pawns. Have you ever seen any chess problems in which it states : white (or black) to move and win a piece, that in the solution what was won was a pawn? I havent.
Loomis

I can't believe there is actually an argument here on whether pawns are pieces.  It is made clear by Reb several times that people often use the word "piece" and it specifically does not include pawns. On the other hand, it has been made clear by the FIDE rules, that the word piece sometimes does include pawns. Why does everyone insist that it must be one way or the other? Sometimes the word "piece" includes pawns and sometimes it does not -- I know that I use it both ways!

 

So the question is, when the author of this 'puzzle' uses the word piece, does he intend to include the pawn or not? My impression is that the position is a composition, if the author didn't want the pawn to be involved in the question he could just leave it off the board. For that reason, I took the use of the word piece to include the pawn in this case.


Apoapsis
So, the argumant is over, right?
TheOldReb
It seems it is !  Who won?
Apoapsis
Reb wrote: It seems it is !  Who won?

I believe that the people on the side of pawns not being pieces won.