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Would prime Karpov have beaten Kasparov?

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VladimirHerceg91

Anatoly Karpov, the master of D4. Iodized Salt's greatest advocate. And, above all a champion for 10 years. Possibly the sport's greatest champion. A Chess talent so revolutionary, that even Bobby Fischer feared him. Bobby forfeited his title in 1975 instead of contesting the great Karpov in order to avoid complete humiliation. 

But that was then, fast forward to 1985, Karpov was a different man. 34 years old, an ancient by chess standards Anatoly had to face a fresh new upstart called Garry Kasparov, or Kasper as he was known by close friends and family. Old and brittle, Karpov fought valiantly until losing the title in a closely contested Chessing classic. Even at his age, he was still competitive. 

So this got me thinking. What if 1975 Anatoly Karpov was matched up against 1985 Garry Kasparov. Surely the result would be different. Would do you guys think? Please share your thoughts in the comments below. 

MitSud
Errrrrmm I dunno Fischer wasn't really scared of him Fisher was just slightly insane, I don't know if Karpov would have beaten Kasparov if he was in his prime but it definitely would have been possibly the best match in chess history.
VladimirHerceg91
2Q1C wrote:

Kasparov would still have won because he benefited from stronger engines growing up than Karpov did.

Karpov didn't need engines, his analytical, computing brain made him pretty much an engine. I think prime Karpov would have beaten Deep blue. 

VladimirHerceg91
MitSud wrote:
Errrrrmm I dunno Fischer wasn't really scared of him Fisher was just slightly insane, I don't know if Karpov would have beaten Kasparov if he was in his prime but it definitely would have been possibly the best match in chess history.

It already was the greatest match in history even with Karpov being old. I just think that it would have gone the other way if Karpov was in his prime. In fact, I think Karpov would have won convincingly, and therefore it wouldn't be the greatest match in history. 

fewlio

get real...fisher didn't play because he didn't like the rules.  This was not due to fear, he had a history of rule protests and forfeits.  He was a stickler for details, everything had to be just so.  This is a genetic or learned mental disorder really, but the eccentric mind is what made him the world champion.  People claim modern players are better, but their training and play is influenced by computers.  If Fisher had the same tools, he'd be better than them.  However, with the presence of such tools, he may have gotten bored and quit chess from an earlier age, so maybe they wouldn't have helped him happy.png

VladimirHerceg91
fewlio wrote:

get real...fisher didn't play because he didn't like the rules.  This was not due to fear, he had a history of rule protests and forfeits.  He was a stickler for details, everything had to be just so.  This is a genetic or learned mental disorder really, but the eccentric mind is what made him the world champion.  People claim modern players are better, but their training and play is influenced by computers.  If Fisher had the same tools, he'd be better than them.  However, with the presence of such tools, he may have gotten bored and quit chess from an earlier age, so maybe they wouldn't have helped him

This is not about Fischer, it is about Karpov and Kasparov. Why do people always feel like they need to talk about Fischer? 

fewlio
VladimirHerceg91 wrote:
fewlio wrote:

get real...fisher didn't play because he didn't like the rules.  This was not due to fear, he had a history of rule protests and forfeits.  He was a stickler for details, everything had to be just so.  This is a genetic or learned mental disorder really, but the eccentric mind is what made him the world champion.  People claim modern players are better, but their training and play is influenced by computers.  If Fisher had the same tools, he'd be better than them.  However, with the presence of such tools, he may have gotten bored and quit chess from an earlier age, so maybe they wouldn't have helped him

This is not about Fischer, it is about Karpov and Kasparov. Why do people always feel like they need to talk about Fischer? 

 

c'mon man get real...you brought him up.  don't be a hypocrite...you were talking about fischer.

DarkKnight1980

History would repeat it self & Kasparov would win.

The only way Karpov might have won if Fischer had played against him.

From this, Karpov would have benifited from the experience imo.

Goram

I think someone would have beaten someone but I am a noob so my imagination power have ..  well some limitation.

VladimirHerceg91
fewlio wrote:
VladimirHerceg91 wrote:
fewlio wrote:

get real...fisher didn't play because he didn't like the rules.  This was not due to fear, he had a history of rule protests and forfeits.  He was a stickler for details, everything had to be just so.  This is a genetic or learned mental disorder really, but the eccentric mind is what made him the world champion.  People claim modern players are better, but their training and play is influenced by computers.  If Fisher had the same tools, he'd be better than them.  However, with the presence of such tools, he may have gotten bored and quit chess from an earlier age, so maybe they wouldn't have helped him

This is not about Fischer, it is about Karpov and Kasparov. Why do people always feel like they need to talk about Fischer? 

 

c'mon man get real...you brought him up.  don't be a hypocrite...you were talking about fischer.

But the focal point is Karpov vs Kasparov. Can we please address that instead? 

VladimirHerceg91
StupidGM wrote:

Fischer had nothing left to prove by 1975, though his playing strength seems to have peaked around 1981.  It's not likely Karpov would have beaten him in 1975, though it's not impossible, but I personally don't think anyone would have dethroned Fischer until Kasparov would have done it in 1985-1988.  By 1988 it was no longer believed that Fischer was dominant.

Kasparov was a bit sharper at his peak than Karpov at his, and if anything, age favored Karpov in the first match.   Back then, a chessplayer's prime was 35 or so.  Kasparov went out on top at forty-four.  Motivation is the issue with age.

I don't buy the whole "nothing left to prove" argument. Every champion should defend their title at least once against another great player. This shows longevity, and the ability to deal with the pressure of being a champion. In my eyes every champion needs to prove that they can defend their title. 

shcherbak

You should stop on 1984. Also would note that on '87 it was equal, and '86 rematch was decided by one point. Wait, is poor old Anatoly still keeps on playing chess, and hold 2600+ rating? Oh, boy.

Fact that chess evolves with each generation of players should not discriminate older players ability to adapt to new trends and ideas. What is worth to mention that 21 years old managed to withhold against experience of "graduate" of Botvinnik's school, like himself.

 

fewlio
VladimirHerceg91 wrote:
StupidGM wrote:

Fischer had nothing left to prove by 1975, though his playing strength seems to have peaked around 1981.  It's not likely Karpov would have beaten him in 1975, though it's not impossible, but I personally don't think anyone would have dethroned Fischer until Kasparov would have done it in 1985-1988.  By 1988 it was no longer believed that Fischer was dominant.

Kasparov was a bit sharper at his peak than Karpov at his, and if anything, age favored Karpov in the first match.   Back then, a chessplayer's prime was 35 or so.  Kasparov went out on top at forty-four.  Motivation is the issue with age.

I don't buy the whole "nothing left to prove" argument. Every champion should defend their title at least once against another great player. This shows longevity, and the ability to deal with the pressure of being a champion. In my eyes every champion needs to prove that they can defend their title. 

 

He was mentally ill, mentally handicapped if you will.  Make some allowances for a great but troubled mind.  As a fan you're entitled to your own list of qualifications of all time great masters, and of course Fischer fans wanted more than anything to see him play more on the int'l scene...so we agree.  However, let's not ascribe motivations such as cowardice, unless there's a lot of evidence for that?  I've never heard anything like it, he was insecure in other ways but not about his chess, it was his whole life, and when you practice everyday with excellent results you gain great confidence, not fear and anxiety.  If you have bad results, then you start feeling those emotions.

shcherbak
2Q1C wrote:

Kasparov would still have won because he benefited from stronger engines growing up than Karpov did.

First "proper" chess computer was BELLE from 1982, apparently playing master level. 

Nehaabbas092536
Karpov is a best chess player but he never gives up he has a mind strength and he is more powerful but karspaov would still won from him. Even kasper would have won though he is very close to his family and friends. His closest friend was Karpov but kasper lost his title just because of Karpov .
VladimirHerceg91
nehaabba wrote:
Karpov is a best chess player but he never gives up he has a mind strength and he is more powerful but karspaov would still won from him. Even kasper would have won though he is very close to his family and friends. His closest friend was Karpov but kasper lost his title just because of Karpov .

That's a good point.

shcherbak

@fewlio I really like you, you are not afraid to say to Fisher fanboy laud and clear, Bobby was a nutter. But Fisher demands for rematch weren't completely out of blue, and FIDE almost went for it.

Smoggyabbainopadano

Karpov was crushing Kasparov 4-0 in their first match but then suddenly it was interrupted.All his advantage went lost.Now how can u play well again after they stole u four points?

VladimirHerceg91
Smoggyabbainopadano wrote:

Karpov was crushing Kasparov 4-0 in their first match but then suddenly it was interrupted.All his advantage went lost.Now how can u play well again after they stole u four points?

Yes, now imagine he was in his prime when they played. It would have even a larger advantage for Karpov. 

VladimirHerceg91
StupidGM wrote:
VladimirHerceg91 wrote:
StupidGM wrote:

Fischer had nothing left to prove by 1975, though his playing strength seems to have peaked around 1981.  It's not likely Karpov would have beaten him in 1975, though it's not impossible, but I personally don't think anyone would have dethroned Fischer until Kasparov would have done it in 1985-1988.  By 1988 it was no longer believed that Fischer was dominant.

Kasparov was a bit sharper at his peak than Karpov at his, and if anything, age favored Karpov in the first match.   Back then, a chessplayer's prime was 35 or so.  Kasparov went out on top at forty-four.  Motivation is the issue with age.

I don't buy the whole "nothing left to prove" argument. Every champion should defend their title at least once against another great player. This shows longevity, and the ability to deal with the pressure of being a champion. In my eyes every champion needs to prove that they can defend their title. 

Fischer had been known to be tons the best in the world since 1965.  He had won twenty in a row into the title match and then dispatched Spassky after being down 2-0 to start the match.  He was making $5,000 a shot to meet rich people; I know one person who did it.  Karpov at his very best could have given Fischer a battle but only an uphill one.

Mike Tyson had the same problem, btw.

 

I'm tired of all these excuses for Fischer. The man was a champion for 3 years, he was a great player. One of the best? Debatable.