Before you say that, you should read the thread "What is the most difficult winnable endgame to learn?" in this forum.
What is the most complicated endgame
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KQ vs KR is far more difficult. For practical purposes, perhaps KRP vs KR and KNP vs KN are the most complicated a human player can expect to play well. KQP vs KQ does occur in practice, but is way too difficult. Other exotic endgames, like KRB vs KNN, are far more complex, but do not have any practical relevance.
peepchuy wrote:
Other exotic endgames, like KRB vs KNN, are far more complex, but do not have any practical relevance.
Those endings have practical relevance in the sense of providing answers to questions such as the one in the title of this thread. But the OP may have qualifications on his question he hasn't told us about.
eveningstarandlion wrote:
However, I do suggest you try Queen Knight vs Rook Bishop Knight. You have NO idea how long it takes to win. Like, 200 moves maybe.
I decided to set up some random Q+N vs. R+B+N (White to move) positions to see how they came out. One of the longer mates (ignoring the 50 move rule) is shown below. In this position, if the white knight starts on c2 instead of b1, the position is a draw. I don't know what the longest mate is.
White to play and mate in 388.
n9531l wrote:
I decided to set up some random Q+N vs. R+B+N (White to move) positions to see how they came out...
I don't know what the longest mate is.
I was able to figure out a way to check for the longest mate. For what it's worth, here's the position.
White to play and mate in 545.
rychessmaster1 wrote:
Can I see all 545 moves?
Why not? But you have to check and make sure they're all correct.
1.Kc3 Bd1 2.Qf1+ Bf3 3.Qc1+ Kf5 4.Kb2 Rb7+ 5.Ka3 Ra7+ 6.Kb4 Rb7+ 7.Ka5 Ra7+ 8.Kb6 Rb7+ 9.Ka6 Re7 10.Qf1 Re6+ 11.Ka5 Re5+ 12.Kb6 Re6+ 13.Kc7 Re3 14.Kc8 Rc3+ 15.Kb8 Kf4 16.Qg1 Ne4 17.Nf1 Rb3+ 18.Ka7 Rd3 19.Qh2+ Kf5 20.Kb8 Nf6 21.Nd2 Bd5 22.Qf2+ Ke5 23.Qe2+ Kd4 24.Ka7 Nd7 25.Qg4+ Kc5 26.Qg1+ Kb4 27.Qb1+ Kc3 28.Qc1+ Kb4 29.Qb2+ Kc5 30.Qc2+ Kd4 31.Qa4+ Kc5 32.Qa5+ Kd4 33.Qb4+ Ke5 34.Ka6 Kf5 35.Qb1 Ne5 36.Kb5 Bc6+ 37.Kb4 Bd5 38.Qf1+ Kg5 39.Qg1+ Kf6 40.Qf2+ Ke6 41.Qf8 Nc6+ 42.Kb5 Ne5 43.Qh6+ Kf5 44.Nf1 Bc6+ 45.Kb4 Rd4+ 46.Kb3 Rd3+ 47.Ka2 Bd5+ 48.Kb1 Nc4 49.Qh5+ Kf6 50.Qh4+ Ke6 51.Ng3 Rb3+ 52.Kc1 Rc3+ 53.Kd1 Re3 54.Nf1 Ra3 55.Qf4 Kd7 56.Ke1 Kc6 57.Qh6+ Kc5 58.Kf2 Rb3 59.Qh8 Ra3 60.Qb8 Kc6 61.Qb1 Nd6 62.Qc1+ Nc4 63.Kg1 Kc5 64.Kh2 Rf3 65.Qa1 Kd6 66.Qe1 Rb3 67.Qc1 Rf3 68.Kg1 Ra3 69.Qc2 Rf3 70.Qh2+ Kc6 71.Qh4 Kb5 72.Qe7 Kb6 73.Qb4+ Kc6 74.Qe1 Ra3 75.Qf2 Rf3 76.Qd4 Kd6 77.Qh4 Kc5 78.Nh2 Ra3 79.Ng4 Ra1+ 80.Kf2 Ra2+ 81.Kg3 Ra3+ 82.Kf4 Rf3+ 83.Kg5 Be6 84.Nf6 Ne5 85.Nh5 Rf5+ 86.Kh6 Ng4+ 87.Kg6 Ne5+ 88.Kg7 Rf7+ 89.Kh6 Ng4+ 90.Kg5 Ne5 91.Qa4 Rf5+ 92.Kh6 Bc4 93.Qa5+ Kd4 94.Qb6+ Kd5 95.Qd8+ Ke4 96.Qd1 Ke3 97.Qc1+ Kd4 98.Ng3 Rf6+ 99.Kh5 Kd5 100.Kh4 Rg6 101.Kh3 Bd3 102.Qf4 Rg8 103.Qb4 Bc4 104.Qd2+ Ke6 105.Qh6+ Kd5 106.Qh7 Kc5 107.Kh2 Rg6 108.Qe7+ Kd5 109.Qd8+ Ke6 110.Qf8 Kd5 111.Kh3 Bb5 112.Qa3 Bc6 113.Kg2 Rf6 114.Kh2 Nf3+ 115.Kh3 Rh6+ 116.Kg2 Nd4 117.Qe7 Kc4+ 118.Kg1 Rg6 119.Qf7+ Re6 120.Qf4 Kd3 121.Qf1+ Kc3 122.Qc1+ Kb4 123.Kh2 Rf6 124.Kh3 Bd7+ 125.Kg2 Bc6+ 126.Kh2 Rf3 127.Qd1 Kc5 128.Nh5 Kd5 129.Qh1 Ke5 130.Qe1+ Kd5 131.Qe7 Kc4 132.Qc7 Kc3 133.Nf4 Kc4 134.Qb8 Rc3 135.Qb6 Be4 136.Qa7 Bc6 137.Qa6+ Kc5 138.Nd3+ Kd6 139.Nb2 Rb3 140.Nd1 Nf3+ 141.Kg2 Nd4+ 142.Kf2 Rf3+ 143.Ke1 Kd5 144.Qb6 Kc4 145.Qa7 Bb5 146.Nf2 Nc2+ 147.Kf1 Bc6 148.Qa6+ Kc5 149.Qa2 Nd4 150.Kg1 Rf5 151.Kh2 Rh5+ 152.Kg3 Rg5+ 153.Kf4 Rf5+ 154.Kg4 Bf3+ 155.Kh4 Rh5+ 156.Kg3 Rg5+ 157.Kf4 Rf5+ 158.Ke3 Re5+ 159.Kd3 Be2+ 160.Kd2 Kb4 161.Qg8 Bb5 162.Qg4 Re2+ 163.Kc1 Kc4 164.Nd1 Rc2+ 165.Kb1 Rd2 166.Qc8+ Bc6 167.Qg8+ Kb4 168.Nb2 Be4+ 169.Ka2 Nb5 170.Qb3+ Ka5 171.Ka1 Bd5 172.Qa4+ Kb6 173.Qb4 Rd4 174.Qe1 Na3 175.Qe5 Nb5 176.Qe3 Ka5 177.Nd3 Be4 178.Qe1+ Kb6 179.Nf2 Bf3 180.Kb2 Be2 181.Qg1 Ka5 182.Qh1 Bc4 183.Qe1+ Kb6 184.Nd1 Bd5 185.Ne3 Be4 186.Qh4 Rb4+ 187.Kc1 Rd4 188.Qg4 Nd6 189.Qg1 Nb5 190.Nc4+ Kc5 191.Nd2 Bd5 192.Kd1 Kc6 193.Ke1 Kb6 194.Nf1 Ka5 195.Ne3 Be6 196.Qh1 Rd6 197.Qe4 Ka6 198.Nf1 Bd5 199.Qa4+ Kb6 200.Qf4 Ka5 201.Ng3 Bb3 202.Nf5 Rd1+ 203.Ke2 Rd7 204.Qe5 Rd5 205.Qa1+ Kb6 206.Qf6+ Ka5 207.Kf3 Rd1 208.Qe5 Bg8 209.Qe2 Bb3 210.Kg3 Nd4 211.Qe5+ Nb5 212.Ne7 Bc4 213.Qe4 Kb4 214.Kf4 Nd4 215.Ng6 Bd5 216.Qe3 Nc2 217.Qh3 Nd4 218.Kg5 Rg1+ 219.Kf6 Bc4 220.Ne5 Rf1+ 221.Kg6 Rg1+ 222.Kh5 Rf1 223.Qe3 Rh1+ 224.Kg5 Rd1 225.Qg3 Be2 226.Kg6 Nb5 227.Qg2 Nd4 228.Kf6 Rd2 229.Qh3 Nb3 230.Nc6+ Ka3 231.Qc3 Rd5 232.Qb4+ Ka2 233.Qa4+ Kb2 234.Qe4 Rd2 235.Qe5+ Ka3 236.Qf4 Rc2 237.Qd6+ Kb2 238.Kg7 Bf1 239.Kh6 Be2 240.Qe5+ Ka3 241.Qe4 Rc5 242.Qe7 Bb5 243.Nd4 Ka4 244.Qf8 Rc4 245.Nf5 Rc6+ 246.Kg7 Rc7+ 247.Kg8 Rc5 248.Qa8+ Kb4 249.Ne3 Nd4 250.Qf8 Nb3 251.Kg7 Ka4 252.Qa8+ Kb4 253.Qa2 Re5 254.Qf2 Rc5 255.Qb2 Bd3 256.Kf6 Rh5 257.Ke7 Rh7+ 258.Ke8 Rh5 259.Kf8 Ka4 260.Qf6 Nc5 261.Qd6 Rh8+ 262.Kf7 Rh7+ 263.Kg8 Kb5 264.Nd5 Kc4 265.Ne7 Be4 266.Nc8 Rh1 267.Qg3 Rf1 268.Nd6+ Kd4 269.Nf7 Rf5 270.Qg1+ Kd5 271.Qh2 Bd3 272.Qd6+ Ke4 273.Kg7 Bc4 274.Nd8 Nd3 275.Nc6 Rg5+ 276.Kh6 Rd5 277.Qf6 Ke3 278.Kg7 Nf4 279.Qe7+ Kf2 280.Ne5 Bd3 281.Qa7+ Ke2 282.Qa1 Kf2 283.Kf7 Ke3 284.Kf6 Be2 285.Nf7 Bd3 286.Qc1+ Kf3 287.Ne5+ Ke4 288.Qh1+ Kd4 289.Ng4 Rf5+ 290.Ke7 Kc5 291.Qg1+ Kb4 292.Qa1 Kb3 293.Qd4 Bc4 294.Qd1+ Kb2 295.Qg1 Nd5+ 296.Kd7 Rf1 297.Qc5 Rd1 298.Ke6 Rc1 299.Ne5 Ne3+ 300.Kf6 Rc3 301.Kg5 Bd5 302.Qb5+ Kc1 303.Qe2 Bc4 304.Qf2 Bb5 305.Qf4 Be2 306.Qb4 Kc2 307.Qd4 Nd1 308.Qe4+ Kd2 309.Kf6 Rh3 310.Qd4+ Kc1 311.Qb4 Rc3 312.Qh4 Kc2 313.Qe4+ Kd2 314.Qa4 Nb2 315.Qb4 Kc2 316.Qe4+ Bd3 317.Qe1 Ra3 318.Qf2+ Kb1 319.Qg1+ Kc2 320.Nc6 Ra4 321.Qf2+ Kb3 322.Qb6+ Kc3 323.Qc5+ Bc4 324.Qe5+ Kb3 325.Nd4+ Ka2 326.Nf3 Bd3 327.Qc5 Rc4 328.Qa7+ Ra4 329.Qf7+ Kb1 330.Qc7 Nc4 331.Qc5 Ra6+ 332.Kg7 Ra4 333.Nd4 Nb2 334.Nb3 Ka2 335.Nd2 Be2 336.Qb6 Bd3 337.Qb3+ Ka1 338.Qd5 Ra7+ 339.Kf8 Ra3 340.Qf3 Ka2 341.Qf7+ Ka1 342.Qd5 Na4 343.Nb3+ Kb2 344.Nd4 Rc3 345.Qg2+ Kb1 346.Qd2 Bc2 347.Nb5 Rf3+ 348.Kg7 Rg3+ 349.Kh6 Rh3+ 350.Kg5 Rb3 351.Qa5 Rd3 352.Qe1+ Kb2 353.Qb4+ Rb3 354.Qd4+ Nc3 355.Nd6 Ka2 356.Nc4 Na4 357.Ne3 Rb5+ 358.Kf6 Rb6+ 359.Ke7 Rb7+ 360.Kd8 Bb3 361.Qd2+ Ka3 362.Nf5 Rb8+ 363.Kc7 Rb5 364.Nd4 Rc5+ 365.Kd7 Nc3 366.Qc1+ Ka2 367.Qf4 Ba4+ 368.Kd8 Rc4 369.Qh2+ Ka3 370.Qd6+ Ka2 371.Nf3 Kb2 372.Qb6+ Ka3 373.Qe3 Kb4 374.Ne5 Re4 375.Qf2 Kb3 376.Nf3 Re8+ 377.Kc7 Nd5+ 378.Kd6 Ne3 379.Nd4+ Kc3 380.Ne2+ Kb3 381.Nc1+ Kc3 382.Qe1+ Kc2 383.Ne2 Nd1 384.Nd4+ Kb1 385.Qg1 Rc8 386.Qg6+ Kb2 387.Qe6 Rc3 388.Qe2+ Ka3 389.Qa6 Kb4 390.Ke7 Ne3 391.Kf8 Nc2 392.Qd6+ Kc4 393.Ne6 Re3 394.Qc5+ Kb3 395.Nf4 Rc3 396.Qa5 Nd4 397.Nd5 Rc4 398.Qb6+ Nb5 399.Ne3 Rc8+ 400.Kg7 Ka3 401.Nd5 Rc4 402.Qf6 Kb3 403.Qe6 Ka3 404.Ne7 Bb3 405.Qa6+ Ba4 406.Nc6 Rg4+ 407.Kh6 Rh4+ 408.Kg5 Rc4 409.Qb6 Nc3 410.Ne5 Rb4 411.Qa6 Kb3 412.Qe6+ Kc2 413.Qg6+ Ne4+ 414.Kh6 Rd4 415.Qf7 Nc3 416.Qf2+ Rd2 417.Qf4 Rd6+ 418.Kg7 Kb3 419.Qc4+ Kc2 420.Qb4 Rd5 421.Nf3 Bb5 422.Kh6 Be2 423.Nd4+ Kd3 424.Nc6 Kc2 425.Qf4 Kd1 426.Nb4 Rh5+ 427.Kg7 Rh3 428.Qd6+ Kc1 429.Qg6 Kd1 430.Qc2+ Ke1 431.Qc1+ Bd1 432.Nc2+ Kf1 433.Ne3+ Ke2 434.Nc4 Rg3+ 435.Kh6 Ne4 436.Qb2+ Ke1 437.Qd4 Bf3 438.Ne3 Ke2 439.Nf5 Rh3+ 440.Kg7 Kf1 441.Ne3+ Kg1 442.Kf8 Kh2 443.Qe5+ Kg1 444.Qf4 Kh1 445.Ke8 Nc3 446.Kd7 Ne2 447.Qg5 Ng3 448.Kc7 Ne4 449.Qf5 Rg3 450.Qf4 Rh3 451.Kb6 Nc3 452.Qc4 Rh6+ 453.Ka5 Ne2 454.Qf7 Rh5+ 455.Kb6 Rh6+ 456.Ka7 Rh3 457.Qf5 Kh2 458.Nc4 Kg2 459.Ne5 Nc3 460.Nd3 Rg3 461.Ne1+ Kf2 462.Qe5 Ne4 463.Nc2 Bg2 464.Qa1 Rc3 465.Qe1+ Kf3 466.Nd4+ Kg4 467.Qe2+ Kg3 468.Kb6 Rc5 469.Qe3+ Kg4 470.Qh6 Rg5 471.Qh2 Bf3 472.Nc2 Rc5 473.Ne3+ Kg5 474.Ka7 Bh5 475.Ng2 Nf6 476.Qg3+ Kh6 477.Qd6 Ra5+ 478.Kb7 Rf5 479.Nh4 Rf2 480.Ka6 Ra2+ 481.Kb5 Kg7 482.Nf5+ Kg6 483.Ne3 Be2+ 484.Kb4 Ra6 485.Qg3+ Kf7 486.Qc7+ Ke6 487.Qc2 Rb6+ 488.Ka3 Ra6+ 489.Kb2 Rb6+ 490.Kc1 Ba6 491.Qf5+ Kf7 492.Qc5 Nd7 493.Qh5+ Ke6 494.Qf5+ Kd6 495.Kd1 Bb5 496.Kd2 Ba6 497.Ke1 Bb5 498.Kf2 Rb8 499.Qg6+ Kc7 500.Nd5+ Kb7 501.Qb1 Kc6 502.Nc3 Bc4 503.Qe4+ Kc5 504.Qe3+ Kc6 505.Qh6+ Kc5 506.Ne4+ Kd5 507.Ke3 Rb3+ 508.Kf4 Rb6 509.Qh8 Bb5 510.Ke3 Bc6 511.Qg8+ Ke5 512.Qe8+ Kd5 513.Qf7+ Ke5 514.Qe7+ Kd5 515.Qd6+ Kc4 516.Qd4+ Kb5 517.Nd6+ Ka5 518.Qc3+ Ka4 519.Qc4+ Ka5 520.Qa2+ Ba4 521.Nc4+ Kb5 522.Nb2 Bb3 523.Qxb3+ Kc6 524.Qc3+ Kb7 525.Nc4 Ra6 526.Na5+ Kb8 527.Nc6+ Kb7 528.Nd8+ Kb8 529.Qb4+ Rb6 530.Qe7 Kc7 531.Nf7 Ra6 532.Qd8+ Kc6 533.Qc8+ Kb6 534.Qxd7 Ra3+ 535.Ke4 Ra7 536.Qd6+ Kb5 537.Qb8+ Ka6 538.Nd6 Re7+ 539.Kd4 Rg7 540.Kc5 Rc7+ 541.Kd5 Rd7 542.Qb5+ Ka7 543.Qxd7+ Ka6 544.Qb7+ Ka5 545.Qb5#
Multiple Queens endgame (such as KQQ vs. KQQQ) is the most maddening endgame I have ever played because there is so much opportunity for counterplay on both sides. The only way you can win here is if you get the initiative first. Then you check the King repeatedly and get him (eventually) into checkmate.
There's a nasty tablebase RN vs NN endgame.
rychessmaster1 wrote:
gchess33 wrote:
Multiple Queens endgame (such as KQQ vs. KQQQ) is the most maddening endgame I have ever played because there is so much opportunity for counterplay on both sides. The only way you can win here is if you get the initiative first. Then you check the King repeatedly and get him (eventually) into checkmate.
Trading all pairs of queens and being 1 queen up is easiest
Yes, but if you somehow cannot trade any of your queens immediately if you are a queen up even, it is very hard to win (unless your opponent does something careless). Also there are many opportunities for counterplay on both sides, so it is really hard to calculate a winning combination in that kind of endgame. For when both sides have the same number of queens the endgame is even harder. In order to win you need to gain the initiative very early on.
we had some symbolic issues
The hardest winnable endgame is surely single Rook endgames with 5 or more pawns each. They can get REALLY nasty!
By the way, position is legal. Knights have taken each other's queen and have returned to their spots.
You missed it when I spotted it. What's this all about anyway.
The following position looks simple, but there are a lot of pitfalls. It's easy to blunder and end up with a draw.
Note: The solution will change if the pawn location changes.
rychessmaster1 wrote:
1 Rb4+
That starts the process, but you have to force the king to the 8th rank. As you advance, the technique changes. Input the position into a computer program and try it. I've been practicing for a few weeks now, and still manage to mess it up. Here's one of my practice runs against the computer. There may be a better way, but I've yet to figure it out.
Since there are only six men on the board, you can just look up White's mate in 34 if you like. It's interesting how long the game continues while White has only one optimal move. Starting with 1.Rb4+ Kg5 2.Rf4 Rb2 3.Kh3 Rb1 4.Ra4 Rh1+ 5.Kg2 Re1 6.Ra5+ Kg6, every move by White has been the only move to get to the quickest mate. On move 7, White finally has a choice of optimal moves. Both 7.f4 and 7.Kh3 lead to mate in 28 more moves.
I say K+B+N vs K