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What do you think is a fair amount for a 2100 to charge ~1400s for lessons?

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Jimmykay
LongIslandMark wrote:
Jimmykay wrote:

LongIslandMark is correct in his basic thinking but 2000 hours/year is a full time job, not 1000 hours.

Sorry I wasn't clear. Being self-employed, you should count on 1000 billable hours a year, more than that is great. It's just a shorthand way to figure out a self-employed billing rate compared to a salaried position.

Being self-employed, you have 15% Social Security Tax, 20%+ income tax (same as salaried), pay your own health insurance, and when you are not billable, you get no income (no paid vacation, sometimes people don't pay, work dries up). You also need to spend unbillable hours promoting yourself (posting on blogs, getting business), and unbillable hours improving yourself. So the 1000 hours is just a rule-of-thumb for that.

thanks, I have no reason to disagree...I have adjusted my posts to concur...you are probably right.

coon74

I'd like to toss in an amendment to LIM's 1st post itt: the yearly income amount to base the calculation on should be not what one is happy to earn, but what one can earn in another possible pursuit with the same amount of effort (generally speaking, not moneywise, but happinesswise - we can choose to earn less for a more enjoyable job), i.e. the alternative gain. These two figures are often, as they say in Odesa, two big differences. (I hope most of the readers are earning more than they need.)

pt22064
LongIslandMark wrote:
Jimmykay wrote:

LongIslandMark is correct in his basic thinking but 2000 hours/year is a full time job, not 1000 hours.

Sorry I wasn't clear. Being self-employed, you should count on 1000 billable hours a year, more than that is great. It's just a shorthand way to figure out a self-employed billing rate compared to a salaried position.

Being self-employed, you have 15% Social Security Tax, 20%+ income tax (same as salaried), pay your own health insurance, and when you are not billable, you get no income (no paid vacation, sometimes people don't pay, work dries up). You also need to spend unbillable hours promoting yourself (posting on blogs, getting business), and unbillable hours improving yourself. So the 1000 hours is just a rule-of-thumb for that.

Social security plus medicare tax rate for self-employed is actually 15.3% plus an extra 0.9% surcharge for income over $200K.  The marginal federal tax rate goes as high as 39.6%, not counting a potential surcharge applicable to investment income (not applicable to wage or self-employment income).  Of course, this does not count state and/or local tax, which could go as high as 8% in certain states.

I note that there is no 20% tax bracket.  The 15% bracket applies for income up to about $39K.  The next bracket up is 28%.

sisu

Since these are online earnings, you can give the tax department the middle finger Tongue Out

pt22064
Jimmykay wrote:
LongIslandMark wrote:
Jimmykay wrote:

Multipy by 2000 hours to get an annual salary. If someone is charging $20/hour, that is someone willing to be happy to earn $40,000/year.

Are you going to pay for chess lessons for someone who qualifies for welfare? Are they really worth it?

$40K /year isn't welfare, and there may be two wage earners in the family (it would be more than decent extra income or semi-retired/retired income)

Actually, it is. look it up. For a family with two kids with one breadwinner earning $20/hour easily is considered  a welfare family in the U.S. If there are two earning $20/hour, they are still EASILY qualifying for Obamacare and receiving all kinds of federal subsidies, if they have children.

I am not sure how you are using the term "welfare family" but while one can receive certain federal benefits if one's household income is $40K per year, one cannot receive welfare or Medicaid.  There are also asset tests for receiving welfare benefits. 

I note that the maximum that one can receive from welfare (TANF) is $675 per month (or a little over $8K per year), and this is only possible where the family has no income from other sources and has more than 3 children.  I know that there is a Cato Institue report that claims that the "average" welfare family receives over $50K in benefits each year, but the report is inaccurate and highly misldeading.  First, they add up the purported value of all possible federal and state aid programs (including housing subsidies, food stamps, etc).  They even include WIC benefits, which are only available if the mother has a young infant or toddler who drinks formula; the study actually assumed that the family had 2 infants that qualified for WIC.  The so-called "average" welfare family actually is not all representative of the typical family receiving welfare benefits.  An article criticizing the Cato report stated that only 1% of welfare families actually fit the hypothetical profile assumed by Cato; moreover, the estimate of the "value" of some of the benefits was distorted.  Cato also purported to compare the welfare family income to a family earning minimum wage.  The comparison was misleading because they left out EIC benefits as well as other benefits (Medicaid, food stamps) that a minimum wage earner would be entitled to.  The conclusion of the report therefore was incorrect.  Moreover, the policy recommendation seems (at least to me) illogical; rather than recommending that the minimum wage be raised (to provide greater incentive to work), they recommended that welfare benefits be reduced.

pt22064

I agree with the estimation method of multiplying the hourly rate by 1000 hours to provide a rough annual income if you are self-employed.  It is hard to maintain a pace of 40 hours per week consistently if you must also do marketing, accounting, and other non-billable work for your small business.  If you hire someone to handle the administrate and other work, then you reduce your net income because you have to pay someone else. 

If you are counting on your chess coaching as your sole income, you have to make sure that the estimated gross income is sufficient to cover your personal expenses.  While $30K per year is above a "wlefare income," it is not a lot of money, and it may be difficult to support a family on that income in most US cities.

You also have to consider what your alternative careers are and what those positions would pay.  For example, new graduates (without work experience) majoring in computer science or engineering expect to make roughly $60K to $70K per year.  So if you have a BS degree in engineering, you have to charge at least $70 per hour to make coaching worthwhile financially.

pt22064

BTW, you shouldn't underestimate what the market will bear.  If you price yourself too low, it is probably difficult to raise your rates significantly in the future (at least with current students).  On the other hand, if you start with a rate that is too high, you will find out soon enough and can lower it bit by bit until students start signing up for your services.

I recall that someone approached me and asked what my "standard" consulting rate was.  I replied that it was $550 per hour, and the person appeared surprised.  At first, I thought he felt my rate was too high, and I began to explain my signficant experience in the field and noted rates charged by others with my experience level.  The person then explained that he was surprised by how low my rate was, stating:  "Everyone else is charging over $1000 per hour."  I then realized that I had seriously underpriced my services.

I_Am_Second

Im USCF 1805 and i charge 00.00

coon74
sisu wrote:

Since these are online earnings, you can give the tax department the middle finger

until the IRS audits you for an arbitrary reason Cry USA tax all earnings of their residents - offline and online, legal and illegal, domestic and offshore. (This legal matter has been already extensively researched with regards to poker, a much grayer area.) The only reliable way to hide earnings is cash in hand from students or friends in your area.

VLaurenT

Depends what you feel comfortable with charging and what the parents feel comfortable with paying. Free market here.

Rates for in-person lessons can be higher than online, because the interaction is better.

Rates for children can differ too, because they are a special population and teaching children is different from teaching adults.

sisu
coon74 wrote:

until the IRS audits you for an arbitrary reason.

And their audit reveals nothing.

Mika_Rao
sisu wrote:
coon74 wrote:

until the IRS audits you for an arbitrary reason.

And their audit reveals nothing.

Except that you spent 300% more than your reported income somehow Wink

Till_98
[COMMENT DELETED]
sisu
Mika_Rao wrote:

Except that you spent 300% more than your reported income somehow

They don't know where you spend it, because they don't know that you have it.

johnmusacha

A capitalist will tell you a fair price is whatever the client is willing to pay.  So if a 1400 is willing and able to pay his coach $1 million an hour for lessons, then it is fair.

Of course questions arise like 1.  What if the client doesn't have access to accurate and objective information about his choice of a coach, 2.  What if the client is somehow unduly influenced, 3.  What if the client is insane?

nartreb

Depends where you live, who your clients are, and what their alternatives are.  

For students, figure you're competing with (non-athletic) after-school programs.  How much do the other parents pay for language classes, math tutoring, religious school, test prep, etc?  (For example:  SAT prep runs $40/hr per student, 20+ students per class, but it's only for a few weeks and it's for a high-stakes outcome, so you should probably be a bit cheaper or offer smaller class sizes.) Make sure you ask how many students per instructor in each class.  

For parents, charge at least as much.  You're spending the same amount of time, right?

(If you've got a decent number of students, consider offering group classes.  It takes extra lesson planning and more people skills, but group lessons are a great way to make money.  Charge each student half what you'd charge for 1:1, get ten students per class, hire an assistant coach so nobody has to wait to get your attention during practice games, you still come out ahead.  ) 

johnyoudell

I did some lecturing many years ago (law not chess). The hourly rate was generous. But I had the lectures to prepare and the people I lectured were doing night study classes for professional exams - they really needed to pass. I found I was giving them model answers and analysing past papers to help them choose what parts of the syllabus to concentrate on and setting exam style questions which I marked. The hourly rate by itself looked good but divided out over all the unpaid hours I put in it was actually very poor.

So I don't know what sort of teaching you do. If you just give your time and wing it as to how the time is used then your rate sounds fine to me - assuming you find people willing to pay it. But if you prepare your lessons and taylor them to suit the various abilities and limitations of your specific clients then it may be a bit low.

Elubas

"Of course questions arise like 1.  What if the client doesn't have access to accurate and objective information about his choice of a coach, 2.  What if the client is somehow unduly influenced, 3.  What if the client is insane?"

 

Well, then he won't make a very smart offer I guess. He's still getting exactly what he asked for.

johnmusacha
Elubas wrote:

"Of course questions arise like 1.  What if the client doesn't have access to accurate and objective information about his choice of a coach, 2.  What if the client is somehow unduly influenced, 3.  What if the client is insane?"

 

Well, then he won't make a very smart offer I guess. He's still getting exactly what he asked for.

Thanks for your input.  There are other ways to think about those questions.  I suppose you are a capitalist-libertarian type, huh?

Figgy20000

You can find someone much better than 2100 to teach you for $30 an hour... I wouldn't pay more than $20 MAXIMUM it's not like you are completely new to the game at 1400 anyways.