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Why lower rated players should learn bird's opening

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X_PLAYER_J_X

Well I am not convinced with any of the From Gambit lines to be honest.

I think The From's Gambit is one of black's worse attempts of being cheeky.

I like d5/g6 lines against the Birds Opening.

0-1 


However, I do think most White sided players play against the From's Gambit line strangely.

After the following moves 1.f4  e5   2.fxe5  d6

I found so many people play 3.exd6.

Yeah I am not a fan of that move.

ShamanofYork
X_PLAYER_J_X wrote:

Well I am not convinced with any of the From Gambit lines to be honest.

I think The From's Gambit is one of black's worse attempts of being cheeky.

I like d5/g6 lines against the Birds Opening.

0-1 


However, I do think most White sided players play against the From's Gambit line strangely.

After the following moves 1.f4  e5   2.fxe5  d6

I found so many people play 3.exd6.

Yeah I am not a fan of that move.

Most Grandmasters disagree. They say it is the soundest gambit in chess, ahead of Marshall and Benko.

BirdsDaWord

I would personally debate that the position is equal.  White must prove winning the pawn is acceptable.  Black must prove that his piece activity is worth the pawn.  These advantages (like the Benko) can carry quite a few moves in, often far enough to secure back the pawn at times, with a playable position.

BUT the ...d5/...g6 setup is very popular as well.

AKAL1

In my opinion the main problem with the Bird is that it's too commital with f4. Even if White think's he's keeping his options open with the center pawns, he's also allowing Black to keep his options open. Black can expect a good game after playing a fianchetto setup, but not to refute the opening.

ipcress12
AKAL1 wrote:

In my opinion the main problem with the Bird is that it's too commital with f4. Even if White think's he's keeping his options open with the center pawns, he's also allowing Black to keep his options open. Black can expect a good game after playing a fianchetto setup, but not to refute the opening.

I doubt White Bird players think they are keeping their center pawn options open with 1.f4. More likely they are comfortable with Dutch-like positions and prefer to avoid Black's booked lines.

iluvzmetunas

I luvz de fromz gambits.

maslah321
You gays are stupid
ipcress12

I wonder where From's players come from. I understand it's a good gambit, but in tournament play you can wait a long time before seeing 1.f4. I've never seen a Bird's opening anywhere except in a few joke blitz games with friends.

How does Black find the time to prepare From's unless he happens to know his next opponent plays 1.f4?

BirdsDaWord
AKAL1 wrote:

In my opinion the main problem with the Bird is that it's too commital with f4. Even if White think's he's keeping his options open with the center pawns, he's also allowing Black to keep his options open. Black can expect a good game after playing a fianchetto setup, but not to refute the opening.

Wouldn't you debate that most center pawn openings also allow Black room for expression?  For instance, in 1. e4, you might face a French, or a Sicilian, or a CaroKann, or a Ruy....

In 1. d4, you might face a myriad of Indian Defenses, or quite a few different highly theoretical QG lines...

In 1. f4, the main lines you face are limited in nature.  I face reversed Dutch, From's Gambit, and early ..Bg4 most of the time.  Then there are some Triangle defenses as well, and then down the line we see some other lesser know options.

I think White gets a comfortable position with 1. f4 that allows him to play into the middlegame.  I do agree that 1. f4 is committal, but White still has plenty of options leading into the middlegame, PLUS with what plans he wishes to adopt in the opening to lead into the middlegame.

BirdsDaWord
ipcress12 wrote:

I wonder where From's players come from. I understand it's a good gambit, but in tournament play you can wait a long time before seeing 1.f4. I've never seen a Bird's opening anywhere except in a few joke blitz games with friends.

How does Black find the time to prepare From's unless he happens to know his next opponent plays 1.f4?

Most of the time from a fellow Bird player, OR someone who likes a good tactical battle.  

ipcress12

Ah, right! I hadn't thought of a Black Birder lying in wait with the From's.

Kiarely

All players, not just lower rated ones, should learn 1. e4  e5 and variations thereof.

 

And just stick with it. It's the only respectful opening (respectful towards yourself and your opponent) anything else is blasphemy and disrespectful.

awj94122
melvinbluestone wrote:

   Well, of course you're gonna' lose sometimes. That's the case with any opening. I suspect the "200 points better" also had something to do with your loss.......

I'm sure it did.  In any case, it is my belief that Bird's Opening can usually be handled by simple developing moves as long as you avoid the "Bird Bind" line, which allows White to play Bb5 in response to a Nf6 move by Black.   

X_PLAYER_J_X
 
TDefiledMartyr wrote:
X_PLAYER_J_X wrote:

Well I am not convinced with any of the From Gambit lines to be honest.

I think The From's Gambit is one of black's worse attempts of being cheeky.

I like d5/g6 lines against the Birds Opening.

0-1 


However, I do think most White sided players play against the From's Gambit line strangely.

After the following moves 1.f4  e5   2.fxe5  d6

I found so many people play 3.exd6.

Yeah I am not a fan of that move.

Most Grandmasters disagree. They say it is the soundest gambit in chess, ahead of Marshall and Benko.

Most Grandmasters would disagree with you not me.

Statistics don't lie!

In a pool of 2200+

1...e5 is not the mainline move.

In fact, 1...e5 is played less than 4 other moves at move 1.

 

1...d5  is the most played move.

1...Nf6 is second

1...c5 is third

1...g6 is fourth

 

The above 4 moves are played more frequenlty than the move 1...e5

Furthermore, the winning percentages favor black in the above 4 moves.

1...e5 is ranked 5th among title players and the winning percentages favor white.

 

If you follow the line out you will see a clear path for white to travel and get a good game.

It is a narrow road but the winning percentages are favoring white.

After 1.f4  e5

The move 2.fxe5 is favoring white in winning percentage.

If the move 2.e4 is played the stats start to favor black.

The reason why is because the position tranposes into a Kings Gambit.

 

After 1.f4  e5 2.fxe5 d6

Statistics show 2 paths white can go down.

The paths are narrow but not impossible.

The 2 moves which 2200+ title players play are the following moves:

3.Nf3

or

3.exd6

The move 3.Nf3 is second played move in the position.

However, It is slightly favored for white with a higher winning percentage.

White declines blacks gift of an extra pawn.

Instead white gains comfort in knowing he has traded a flank pawn for a center pawn.

Allowing him 2 center pawns vs his opponents 1.

Plus an opening F file for his rooks.

The move 3.exd6 is most popular move in the position.

However, The path is very narrow but again it favors white.

 

After the moves 1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3

Black has played 4 different moves.

All 4 moves give white a higher winning percentage yet again.

White is favored Statistically.

I do not know what an engine thinks of the position after move 4.

However, even if an engine considers the position equal.

 

There is a difference between a human database and an engine playing a line.

The difference is humans play human moves 85% of the time.

If the engine finds the position equal it may be because it knows the critical computer moves to make the position stay equal.

However, The question would be if the human who is playing the game could actually find that computer sequence of moves.

Since the statistics favor white in the position.

Apparently the humans are not finding those moves.

Which is shown in stats.

 


 

Bottom line White will usually always be more prepared than black in the line.

Why?

Because White plays the line so much.

As Black you may not see it this line as much.

Unless you play the Bird yourself I doubt you will have a chance playing such Gambit line.

Which means when you go down this sharp narrow path where you need percision moves you are more than likely going to get crushed by a Birds player.


 

1...d5/g6  and wing it!

You'll get a better game against the bird.

Don't believe me?

After 1.f4 d5  2.Nf3

Whats most played move by title players?

2...g6  Wink

 

Whites chance of winning after 2...g6

26.8% chance

Black chance of winning after 2...g6

39.6% chance

Draw chance

33.6%

 

You know The Sicilian Dragon Defence and the Birds Opening are not refuted! Which is true.

But the Yugoslav attack and 1...d5/g6  sure has hell come close.

BirdsDaWord

I face ...d5 and ...g6 a lot and get comfortable games against it.  White has a lot of options to play against Black here, but I like either the Leningrad or Stonewall, depending on my mood.

BirdsDaWord

Game I played today against a typical setup you face a LOT when you play 1. f4 - it is a game suited for a quick e5 push and equalizing immediately.  

I believe although Black can get a good game, it is not won for either side - both sides must still prove their case.  Here is the game, with my thoughts.  It was 3+2.

EDIT - DANG it.  I did this as a puzzle.  All that commentary is gone....GRRRR.  Either way, you can still see the game.
joeman0

Doug, have you read Timothy Taylor's book on Bird's opening?  His book is the only book I read on bird's opening, and I am about half way down.  I think he considers the early Bg4 pin refuted in classical setup and he listed two ways.  One way is that he can the early Bg4 pin does not work well against Leningrade and he showed on game.  The other way is early h3.  black has to take the knight or the bishop is trapped.  after Qxg3, then he recommends g4 starting the kingside pawnstorm.  He showed on game played by danielsen in which white is almost 2 pawns up according to fritz, and white only has the queen developed after 12 moves.  It's a weird game.  Also Timothy Taylor does not believe Fianchetto white's queenside bishop (.e.g Bb2) has any advantage if black plays correctly. 

BirdsDaWord

I did and I don't care much for his book tbh. I think Soltis was a better teacher of the Bird.

Mr_Plume

@Kiarely : you're kidding ?

wirebolt

Even though you open up the diagonal to your king, 1. f4 gives White large control of the centre and encourages development of pieces. You can do it if you have the proper follow up moves.