What do you play against the London System?

Is it just me or are these London System games kind of boring?

What do you play against the London System and why?

Are there any tips in playing against it? I heard that black should trade the dark squared bishops off. If this is what black is supposed to do, wouldn't it be a bad idea to fianchetto the dark square bishop like many black players do when they go into a Kings's Indian Defense against the London System?

Many of the openings with "system" in the name are boring for that exact reason: they're pre-packaged arrangements of moves that have little cause or effect on how the opponent plays.  The London is solid and unaggressive, leaving it to the other player to go wrong at some point.  That being said, you can do most anything against it: b6/c5/Bb7, Bf5/c6/e6, c5/e6, g6/Bg7, etc.  ...c5 with Qb6 can be useful to take advantage of the c1 bishop's absence, much like in the Trompowsky.

It isn't necessary to trade white's f4 bishop and it may get replaced by a queen from d2, pawn from e3, or other defender anyhow.  What generally sets this opening apart is that ...e5 is out of the question for black, and again play on the dark squares is more effective than usual because white's bishop is away.  If you're playing to win rather than draw, be aggressive with c5 and Qb6, or even a pawn storm on the queenside.  The fianchetto is fine for the f8 bishop or it can go to d6 for the trade; e7 is viable too.  Another option is chasing the f4 bishop with Nh5, especially if white plays e3 before h3 and leaves it without a retreat.

The London can be more interesting than you might think. Prompted by friends, I played it for about a year with outstanding results. I was trying to bring more solidity to my tactical and hyper-aggressive style.

I was surprised at how many times I had winning kingside attacks in less than twenty moves! Pretty good for a stodgy opening! Here's how it works: As Nimzowitsch taught us, a flank attack is best met by a counterattack in the center. Well, with white's one problem piece (the DSB) posted aggressively outside the pawn chain, and with the rock-solid white center, there is no reasonable central counterattack. I've watched my opponents get mated while trying to undermine my center.

<Odyson> Interesting! Would you be kind enough to post 2-3 of these under-25-moves mating games?

Thanks everyone for the info.

@Odyson, I am watching at this very moment the London System chessbase DVD where Nigel Davies is talking about how white can get a kingside attack in the lines where black plays e6.

My opponents never seem to try it though, I think you're an exception in that you had already become a good player before you played the London System. Most people who play it I think are beginners, and they often seem to just flounder around doing nothing after creating a position where there's not much going on.

I like to use a sort of reversed catalan w/ a knight on d7. It's a simple setup to play and it gets me into the middlegame. I avoid putting the knight on c6 because sometimes White can play dxc5 and keep the pawn. When the dark-squared bishop is inside the pawn chain it's safer. 

@solskytz, Yes, I'll dig out my game scores and post them, but not till after next Friday. I'm pretty busy till then.

<Odyson> This is appreciated! Make sure you send me a message once you do post the games - you really raised my interest. 

@FriendlySquid: I once got far too much excitement on the Black side of a London.

And here ...g6 or ...Kf8 would be solid; ...Qb4+ would be the wild way to go (but probably quite unjustified after Nd2)

A Queen's Indian setup usually and preparing ...c5.  Because it's flexible, optimizes piece mobility, and creates a nice imbalance contrast. 

It all depends what you think of as "boring," I suppose.

If you like testing your memory of opening variations against your opponent's in the hope that a slip up will allow you to unleash some sort of prepared attack or trap, then yeah, the London would be very boring to you.

If you like openings that allow you to develop your forces without too much conflict, getting you into a middlegame where your pieces are well poised, and all of your attacking forces still remain on the board ready to use in as passive or as aggressive a way as you choose, the London (and similar "quiet" systems) can be quite rewarding, even for the bloodthirsty.

It's just a matter of whether you get any joy from openings, or need a wide-open game in order to pursue your fireworks.  If you need berserker aggression starting on move five or six, then the London would be a nightmare for you.  If you can wait till move fifteen, then it should be just fine.

@odyson/@solskytz I'd love to get a ping as well when you post the games!

Oh, but as to the OP, I mostly play the Dutch.  And since the London doesn't directly challenge it with the Kingside fianchetto, I play a b6 line.

Play an early c5 and take the pawn on d4.  Very simple.

Black typically equalizes soon afterwards.  Then the hard part begins.

I promised to post some games almost two weeks ago but I haven't because the diagram function is not working for me. I know I need to click on "insert" but the insert button only appears for a flash then disappears below the horizon line where all my efforts to get to it have been futile. Instead of keeping you waiting longer I'll post one game in the old-fashioned way until I get this worked out.

The early opening sequence could be improved on by both sides. I show this game because it demonstrates a typical type of flank attack that you can generate with the London.

J.Hale 2159 / D.Ho 1929  Western team champ.  2011

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 e6 3.e3 Be7 4.Nd2 b6 5.Bd3 Bb7 6.Ngf3 0-0 7.c3 d5 8.Ne5 Nbd7 9.Qf3 c5 10.Qh3 Re8 11.Ndf3 h6 12.g4 Nxe5 13.Nxe5 Ne4 14.Qh5 Rf8 15.Bxe4 dxe4 16.h4 Qe8 17.dxc5 bxc5 18.g5 f6 19.Ng6 Kh7 (giving up the exchange and probably his toughest defence) 20.Nxf8+ Qxf8 21.gxh6 g6 22.Qg4 e5 23.h5 g5 24.Qf5+ Kh8 25.Bg3 Qxh6 26.Qd7 and black soon resigned. A flawed game and a clumsy format but lets resume this London conversation a little later.

Oh, Odyson - I have found your thread again!!

What problem are you having with the game editor? It shouldn't be so hard to actually post the game through the usual interface... let me know what you're running into. 

At which point does "Insert" appear? And at which point does it disappear?

From my experience, once you select to post a GAME (rather than a diagram or a puzzle) in the first screen, then PASTE the GAME PGN in the right place in the second screen - on all of the following screens you have a GREEN INSERT BUTTON all the time, on the LOWER LEFT CORNER. It should never disappear :-)

Try again, and I hope that you will be successful :-)

It's pretty well known that this are the two best defences against the London System. The first one is more for d5 players and the second for KID, but i play the KID and against the LS i play the system with ...d5 so it is really a matter of taste.

1. The ...QB6 Defence

Indeed, the Modern Defense with d6 is the one of the most effective ways to play against the "London System," which is essentially just a Reversed Slav opening,  with the white pieces.