How to surprise white in the italian

Title of the thread. I'm forming a repertoire based on the nimzowitsch defense... I've never played the italian / ruy lopez / scotch position as black, but transposing into these lines from the nimzowitsch is the only thing that looks good to me here.

The whole point of the repertoire is to throw white off, that's why I'm playing the nimzowitsch. I have something for the Ruy Lopez I'm happy with....

I'm not worried about the scotch, and I'm happy with the rest of the repertoire... but I need something in the italian. I'm looking for a way to surprise white... I don't want to play the same old game everyone else is playing, that is just antithetical to my approach to the game. I also find it just doesn't work. And it's alot less fun.

So it seems to me that there is nothing in the italian that is not either completely played to death, or just bad for black. Am I wrong? 
I'm looking for lines that will, if not surprise a decent player, at least they should be effective lines and fairly uncommon... ideally it should allow me to sidestep most of their plans as well... I've never played the italian which is why I'm asking for advice. Ideally these would be lines that are viable enough where I could play them until ~2200.

Any suggestions?

Frankenstein-Dracula variation.

The only ways that I can think of to surprise white after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 are to either play 3...Be7 (The Hungarian Defense) or 3...f5 (The Rousseau Gambit). I know that they are extreme choices and might not be good enough for what you are looking for. Otherwise, I'd look at the Two Knights defense because that might be your best opportunity to get positions that you like.

I'd probably play the piano if I had to choose a common variation. The two knights is very algorithmic and played out, some people have been playing those lines constantly for 30 years... and it's full of gambits for white. It just doesn't seem appealing.
Rousseau gambit looks just bad to me, that diagonal is already very vulnerable.

There's also the Paris defense, which looks a bit interesting... seems underplayed, engine likes it the same as the Hungarian defense. But the lines the engine prefers people almost never play for whatever reason, they look interesting though, not really sure why they aren't played. Maybe Paris defense players just avoid theory altogether -

But the line where white castles looks like the only line that's not interesting for black, there's not much to do here and you just end up with a typical italian style position with a worse bishop... maybe queenside castle is an option in some lines -

In the case of the Italian White has the first move, he’s put a pawn in the middle, developed two pieces and got ready for castling. In other words, he hasn’t done anything wrong. 

so anything truly surprising right out of the gate is going to be just bad. When you play e4 e5 (granted, in this case by transposition) there are some things you just have to accept you’re signing up for the long haul. If you do find anything ‘fairly effective and uncommon’ the next beer is on me

That being said there are some ways you can spice things up but you need to go deeper into the lines before you can mix things up properly.

You mentioned the Paris Defense before I was even able to, and that would definitely be my recommendation if you don't pick up the Two Knights.

The original line which sparked my interest was this one:

The likelihood that anybody will actually play 6. Bd3 is incredibly low, and if they don't, then your position is even better with White's pawn left on c2 still.

Of course, there's also all the fun lines you showed against 4. c3, 4. d3, and 5. dxe5, but I would highly recommend 4... Be6 as a response to 4. 0-0:

After much deliberation I must concur that the Paris defense is a worthy weapon. I didn't notice the KID transposition but that's more icing on the cake. Not sure yet whether I like Be6 or Bg5 in the castles line, I'll have to play those positions and see which one feels better, but that line is only played 20% of the time anyway so I'm not too worried about it. Now, the last thing that remains will be to figure out something interesting in the scotch... then the old rotting corpse known as the Nimzowitsch defense will be revived.

Never played it. But one can try it in blitz g6 hook is not that much of a problem as h4 will only weaken white castled king.

g6 idea is it fairly effective and uncommon? If it is, you know what to do, I guess.

This followup to castles looks interesting, even though Qf3 isnt the preferred move by the engine, it's still pretty close... if white doesnt play Be7 here you almost equalize, and you have alot of pressure on the kingside. Black scores well here on lichess.. I may try this and see how it goes -

Actually playing h5 immediately here, instead of Ne7, may be even better... if white doesn't play Na3 here (who will ever play that?) then the engine eval is great, back on par with the main line...

1.e4 e5 2.nf3 nc6 3.bc4 d6 4.d4 exd4 5.nxd4 g6

i have written elsewhere on the paris defense or semi-italian

that after 1.e4 e5 2.nf3 nc6 3.bc4 d6!? white is in a small strategic zugswang as all the moves give black a great an unique counter response

4.c3 f5!? is both romantic and sound. you will have more prep than your opponent 99% of the time.

4.d3 na5 grabs the bishop pair

4.d4 exd4 (although you must prepare a line for 5.c3!? gambit) 5.nxd4 g6, leads to an asymmetrical position similar to the fianchetto lines of the old steinitz. The key difference is that after 0-0, you can deal with the c4 bishop via be6!

4.0-0 i recommend bg4, with plans for nf6 be7 qd7 and caslte on either side. you normally dont take on f3 but retreat via bh5

4.nc3 na5!? intending c5 via either bb5+ c6 be2, c5 or be2 c5 right away. you only do this when the knight goes on c3 because now c3-d4 is not possible

4.h3 and simplest is be6!? 5.bxe6 fxe6 black has almost equalized.

The only issue I see is I think your position is transposing into a bad Philidor Position.

The critical line would be 4.d4.

The below is the position your saying:

Same position can be reached from Philidor Defense.

In the above position, Black can defend e5 pawn with Nc6 or Nd7.

It is considered better for Black to defend with Nd7 to aim for the Hanhan variation which I am probably misspelling.

The move Nc6 isn’t considered good for Black.

The reason Nc6 is considered bad is because positionally White is trying to dominate the d5 square.

- e4 pawn hits d5

- Bishop on c4 will hit d5

- Knight on c3 will hit d5

- When E pawn exchanges, White will have semi open file so the Queen and/or Rook can hit d5.

For the above reasons, The move Nd7 is considered better because it doesn’t obstruct the C pawn which allows Black the chance to play c6 defending the d5 square.

Obviously, your playing the Nimzowitch move order so you can’t play Nd7. I am just trying to explain why the move Nc6 is bad in the Philidor because your position is transposing into it.

You showed a few lines where white players are playing questionable moves.

I think the below variation is going to give you biggest issues:

If I remember correctly, Black has to trade E pawn in that position or the continuation lines are very problematic for Black.

The Philidor Defense has similarities to the Sicilian. I have played these lines as Black. 

The Line White is playing is very similar to a Fisher-Sozin style of position like Bobby Fisher use to play

Just so no one is confused.

I know what the Fisher-Sozin line is.

Its a line in Sicilian and I know I am showing you a Philidor line which is completely different.

However, The position white is playing doesn’t have a name which I have found. It is nameless line, but what white plans to do is very similar to the ideas in the Fischer-Sozin line which is why I am mentioning it.

- White plans to dominate d5 square.

- White plans to castle King side and drop bishop to b3

- White plans to play f4.

- White plans to break with either e5 or f5.

Its actually very difficult for Black to handle.

In the Nd7 line, Black plays c6 to add control to d5. Than they use the c6 pawn as anchor to launch a b5 pawn position on Queen side. Black idea is to play b4 and de-stabilize the Knight on c3 so the E4 pawn comes under heavy fire.

Black often has semi-open E file in Philidor so the combination of b4 de-stabilize move combined with heavy E file pressure on e4 pawn can often give Black very good counter play.

The issue Black would face is trying to drum up counter play in the Nc6 line when they don’t have the ability to play c6 and b5.

If we could think of a way for Black to get counter play, I might start playing Philidor again for fun. LOL

It just seems like tough situation.

You're getting too lost in theory crafting here... In the philidor, after Nc6, white does not respond with Bc4 but with d5 immediately. With Bc4 played, after d5 the bishop is staring at a brick wall. The Paris defense position is +0.23 according to leela, the philidor Nc3 position is +.41... for reference, the mainline philidor exchange is +0.29. It is simply not correct to say this is a worse philidor, it is not. Plenty of common openings leela scores in the range of +0.2-+0.3 including the KID, which the structure is very similar to... the position is fine. Furthermore, the line that scores +0.23 here is the Bd3 > c4 KID-type position - if Nc3 (most common move) is played instead of Bd3 > c4 the position is +0.19 - at this point you're in the territory of most common black defenses. 
Anyway, the whole benefit of the opening is in the assumption the opponent will not be prepared - if I can bring to bear all my understanding of the KID, a d4 opening, against an e4 player I think that's a significant victory - it must be better than playing the KID against a d4 player.

GROB IT!

just take and play g6. the g6 line from the paris defense is actually easier to play than the larsen philidor

you are getting things backwards, if black plays nc6 he is not intending to play the hanham philidor. Besides it is well known that if specificially black wants the hanham philidor, the 1...e5 move order doesnt work, he needs to play the pirc move order 1.e4 d6 2.d4 nf6 3.nc3 e5

What's the point, since it isn't a transposition? Really you're going straight into an Italian and the Nimzo move would be 2. ...d5.