Grand Prix v Closed Sicilian (fianchetto)

Any thoughts on when you would play one over the other?

2... d6 - play the grand prix, that one tempo wasted on d6 has brutal consequences for black

2... e6 - just play the open sicilian via the chameleon variation. There's not much better against 2...e6, all the closed sicilian lines are generally excellent for black after an early d5 push, the grand prix also gets dominated for the same reason. You can choose whether to play fiancetto against the Kan setup 3... a6 and only enter the open lines against 3... Nc6 - Taimanov and Four Knights. You can avoid the wing gambit of the Kan this way. The line 3... Nc6 leads to a pretty strong d5 push against the fiancetto so I wouldn't recommend going that route. Unless you want to memorize the resulting lines very deep, I guess that could work, but personally I'd just play the open lines

2... Nc6 - kind of up to you, I'd probably play the open sicilian but fiancetto looks good too. Maybe play the chameleon and decide which you want. Grand prix / delayed Rossolimo - they score okay but if black knows what they're doing I don't think they're very good, would much rather play the real Rossolimo at this point

2... g6 - just push d4, it's some pseudo hyperaccelerated dragon line which is good for white

2... a6 - boring line but I'd probably again play the chameleon, if they wanted to play a Kan we could transpose into that depending on our repertoire, otherwise probably I'd avoid the Najdorf / improved OKelly here and play the fiancetto.

Thanks ibrust, I will take it onboard and have a good look.

I think that they are overlooked because the engine doesn't like them much and they are rarely seen at the top level. This actually makes them attractive at my level. I like games where I have more experience in lesser seen positions I like even though the analysis/eval doesn't look great.

The normal Grand Prix move order is 2.f4

I don’t recommend it though because Black can play d5 right away.

I would use the Closed Sicilian move order:

Technically, you can play Grand Prix against any of Blacks 2nd responses.

The problem is if Black builds up in the center and does center strike (Usually by doing e6 & d5). Black often shuts down Grand Prix.

Another problem is if Black builds up on wings and does wing pawn storm (Usually by doing a6 & b5). Black often messes up the ideal spot for LSB.

The Grand Prix line is borderline unsound which is why you don’t see it played a lot in high level chess.

Technically, you can play it against any 2nd move Black does and if Black knows what they are doing you will be trying to survive for a draw.

The only line the Grand Prix is said to have great game even if your opponents knows what to do is in the 2…d6 line that is because the move is considered an error.

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Generally Speaking - I try to tell people to avoid playing the Grand Prix if their opponents play a6 or e6.

Both a6 & e6 are like half way moves to countering/ giving the Grand Prix a tough time.

Against those lines I like Closed Sicilian.

The Fianchetto line does very well vs. e6 complex.

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You should automatically play Grand Prix vs. 2…d6.

Your like guaranteed to have great game.

You could try playing Grand Prix vs. 2…g6

Usually, players playing g6 are trying to get Dragon pawn structure and so they are often less likely to do e6 + d5 while having a Fianchetto on g6

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The toughest line is probably 2…Nc6 because it is very flexible and doesn’t really reveal anything about Black set up. You sort of have to figure out what to do against it on case by case situation.

You have to think if your opponent knows the proper line to counter Grand Prix or not.

The safe option is to play Closed Sicilian because it’s still best, but if you wanted to gamble and mix in some Grand Prix I wouldn’t blame you. You just have to realize it could go wrong for you if your opponent knows.

Let's investigate how wrong this comment is.

In the closed sicilian 2... e6 can attack the fiancetto immediately, all the resulting positions give black alot of activity, all are almost equal, they're generally more unforgiving of white mistakes and in many lines the engine actually prefers black... black also has excellent winrates in these lines, usually higher than white.

In this line black immediately misplaces whites bishop, engine scores it +0.00 -

here black can punish d4 if white plays it. engine scores this -0.20 in favor of black -

white has to play d3 instead, but black can advance the pawn / force white to play Ne2 instead of Nf3. engine prefers black at -0.05 -

If black wants to play the ideal engine line, which will give him a +0.05 engine advantage, he has to tolerate having his king misplaced -

Black also has options, like this line where black tempos the queen and controls the center, but gets an IQP (against a fiancetto this is a good thing), white has like a +0.05 engine advantage. again here black gets a dynamic sharp game... generally not what a fiancetto player wants -

The fiancetto via the chameleon tells a similar story. Here one small error in the move order and black has already equalized. Infact here the position is -0.20 for black, white is very non-threatening and black has the initiative -

Here's a sideline where whites king gets misplaced -

If white wants to avoid that he can castle but he's no longer vying for advantage, and black continues to have good pressure -

Black also has other options though, like taking on d4 immediately. Who would choose white in this position? -

In all the lines black immediately pushes d5 and gets a great game, he dominates the center and puts alot of pressure on white... generally if white goes wrong black can punish that pretty effectively.

This is all very different than other fiancetto setups where it's a positional game and white can sit back comfortably.

None of this is what white generally wants out of the opening. If this is what you want out of the opening we are playing a very different game.

Some good advice that re-enforces my own conclusions. I have completely abandoned ideas of resigning the bishop to e2 in Grand Prix, against for example a6 lines and switched to closed Sicilian.

I am still enjoying good success with Grand Prix, which I thought might be failing at 2200+ but have identified where it is not such a good opening.

Thanks for the useful input.

To answer ibrust post #5

I will share a game played by Boris Spassky vs. Garry Kasparov.

According to the Engine - The game was flawless!

No Inaccuracies - No Mistakes - No Blunders from either side.

It is probably the most accurate way to play the line from what I have seen.

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However, The 4.exd5 lines ibrust showed are not the only way to play the position.

4.d3 & 4.Bg2 are also moves in the position.

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I have always favored the 4.d3 line myself, but again it is just a preference thing.

Black can play stuff like d4 & e5 trying to get big center similar to King’s Indian set up.

White often generates a powerful King side attack.

This is like typical set up.

Engine will favor Black due to space advantage.

Black position is so awesome, until they are checkmated.

It suffers from the Horizon effect.

If you play the line out you will see white has plenty of chances.

I don’t have game to show, but I am sure they are out there.

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Also, I don’t want to forget the merits of the move 4. Bg2.

I have seen a lot of strong players play 4.Bg2 as well.

It’s a very good line as well.

It can sometimes transpose into the d3 line, but their is a funny pawn sacrifice line in it which you would have to be on look out for if you played the line.

This funny looking line for example.

I don’t like how it looks for white so I don’t play it in order to avoid having to deal with it.

Its probably good for white, but it looks weird to me.

Even if the line was considered a slight advantage to white, I still wouldn’t play it.

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I play lines based on my emotions which is kind of weird.

Some chess players are emotional players during a chess game, but I am often very calm during chess game. I am very Anti-Emotional when I play.

However, outside of a game, I am emotional to lines I chose to play.

I guess I am backwards because most people are probably very mellow or calm about the lines they want to pick outside of chess game.

Anyway, You can see how the Closed Sicilian rocks vs. e6 structures.

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The only thing I want to mention at the end is d5 is probably the most challenging move for Black. It is the most played move at the very top level of chess.

Beneath the Top levels of chess were the rest of us mere mortals hang out d5 isn’t played hardly at all.

Players will play e6 + a6 like a Kan sort of set up.

Or e6 + Nc6 like a sort of Paulson or something.

The move d5 is more of a French Defense sort of Idea.

Most players playing a Sicilian will try to stay with in a Sicilian pawn structure.

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I showed you how white is doing good/perfectly fine against the d5 move.

The d5 move being the most challenging move for Black to do against white.

You can just imagine how amazing white is doing when Black doesn’t play d5 and plays some other slacker type of move.

It comes as no surprise why Boris Spassky Ex-World Champion made a killing with Closed Sicilian. Just slaughtering people with Closed Sicilian.

The pawn structure may change after pushing d5, but practically all the pawn strategy in the sicilian is focused on pushing d5, you wouldn't forgo attaining your primary goal due to not being used to attaining it so easily. Whether black is prepared to capitalize on it - it's in his hands, black basically has the initiative and the opportunity.

You showed me a basically equal position that's very double-edged... then you showed me two world champions playing a line where black had the initiative the whole game, which then ended in a draw - a good result for black, btw. Club players generally get owned in these lines, we can see the stats, and it's no mystery why... there are just better options... if you want rarity there are better rare lines in the Taimanov / Four Knights.

But you don't have to listen to my advice, feel free to play those lines to your hearts content. Meanwhile I'll be playing the black side of it.

You are correct d5!

The d5 pawn break is a main idea in a lot of Sicilian lines.

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However, you said the magic words “Club players”

Club players don’t like playing main lines.

They like playing side lines to avoid theory and stuff so your rarely going to see d5.

The player playing White still has to study what to do against d5, but it’s not played as much.

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With best play, I think all solid lines in chess end in draw.

The fact game ended in draw with best play from both sides shows it is 100% solid.

As far as the position being Double Edge with Black having some Initiative, Can’t same be said for all Sicilian lines? It’s just a double edge line in general even if you play open Sicilian lines.

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As far as not listening to you, Your actually don’t know.

Your not first to tell me Closed Sicilian is bad and their was a time when I believe the players. I used to play Open Sicilian during a time, but as I got better in chess. I realized Closed Sicilian does well and is very under estimated.

No, in the open lines black hasn't played d5 yet and is much more on the defensive than in these e6 fiancetto lines where black has all the initiative and the fiancetto has slowed white down / opened up weaknesses.

If black is not playing d5 here at club level it's probably more due to ignorance than anything intentional.

I'm not saying the closed sicilian is all around bad, I think it's great, I just wouldn't play these lines against 2... e6... these might be the worst lines for white in the closed sicilian. I probably would play the chameleon fiancetto after 2... e6 3... a6, which will avoid the Kan wing attack, then play Taimanov / Four Knights against 3... Nd6. Playing just the Taimanov / Four Knights to avoid just particular problematic lines is not difficult.

If you drill into these lines and memorize them very deep you can make them work, that's true for most openings, and yes they're double edged, so probably your experience is an advantage. But as white why do you want to give black the opportunity, why do you want a double edged line when there are other options where you're really not in any danger, and in the many lines it's just black fighting for survival?

Alot of club players are of the mentality to never play the open sicilians, sometimes club players are ironically more experienced in their anti-sicilian lines than in their preferred open sicilian - a good example of this is the Smith Morra which I think is not surprising whatsoever and is just a terrible opening... I'm not fully bought into the anti-sicilian mentality, if you know the open sicilian lines there are tons of rare sidelines within them as well as very powerful mainlines. But the open sicilian is a giant repertoire, and closed sicilian is one of the better anti-sicilians with many interesting lines, and you have the power to just choose specific open lines you want to play - that will greatly narrow the repertoire... so I think a mix of closed / open is very good. But I wouldn't feel some obligation to only play the closed lines assuming I'm greatly throwing off the opponent. If you find a good sideline in an open sicilian you're likely to throw the opponent off.

Carry onward!

For example... this is a reasonable sideline in the four knights. This would allow you not to learn the four knights theory. Be2 here is played only 7% of the time, and the followup Qd3 is only played 7% of the time. So this will occur in like 0.5% of four knights games. Black could push d5 immediately here, which he usually does, but that's an inaccuracy and when he does white has a significant advantage, because he has no vulnerabilities and can mount a counterattack, white hasn't fiancettoed so black doesn't get tremendous initiative from it the way he does in your fiancetto lines -

An original way to play the Grand Prix while avoiding some overanalysed lines is via 2.Be2. There is even a course on it at Chessable (The British Grand Prix Attack).