1. D4 c6 as black

I’ve been having good luck with c6 against 1d4 lately. Does anyone else do this? I like playing the Slav and caro kann and this seems to result in players playing lines I know well as black on a regular basis.

It’s kind of like a reti or pirc where I don’t go for the center and force my opponent to think of what I might do next lol. It might just be psychological but c6 seems to be solid.

what the worst possible outcome out of the opening playing 1. D4 c6 vs black?

What’s the advantage of 1…c6 over 1…d5? And to answer your question the worst outcome is 2.e4! taking central space.

The only valid reason why someone would choose to play c6 as a response to d4 would be if they wanted to offer to go into a Caro Kan. If white likes playing against the Caro (which is unlikely, nobody likes playing against the Caro), he can accept but also has to deal with the fact of his opponent inviting the Caro. A similar choice occurs if the opponent plays e6 before Nf6 on his way to a Nimzo, offering the French instead.

The most absolutist classical theory would claim e4 is the best response since pawns at d4 and e4 are better than at d4 and c4, which is probably why the vast majority play d5/Nf6 as their first move with black (preventing e4). It's the same sort of theory that would consider the English inferior. As has been known for hundreds of years d4 and c4 can be just as good, while the Caro and French can be troublesome.

To me that’s the best outcome because we’re playing the botvinnik carls which I know very well!

Most people that start with 1.d4 won’t switch into an e4 opening, so although you’ll get some Caros it’ll be rare. Drawback of …c6 immediately vs 1.d4 is it’s a bit limiting against sidelines where’d you’d have been better served playing …c5 in one go. (For example I think the London System becomes a bit more decent against this move order)

That said, there’s nothing massively wrong with it but not a move order I’d personally adopt even if I played the Caro.

Like others have said, there's nothing really objectively wrong with 1...c6 against 1.d4. But it's definitely a bit restrictive.

I try to play a different flavor of game against d4 than I do against e4 - for the sake of variety. So I personally wouldn't want all my defenses to feel similar. I'd rather have them feel different and varied, if possible, from game to game.

More unique structures to learn and explore = more fun.

I'd say that the worst possible outcome is 2.Bf4. I was looking at different ways to play against the London while looking through "The Agile London System" and responding in the style of a Slav Defense just seemed too shaky for me.

I mean if you decline a gambit there are higher chances like Englund —> Center Game and Scandinavian —> Blackmar

I almost always play Qb6 after Bf4 and have pretty good results agains the london. I hate the games that result from it, but I score well enough. London players typically don't like being pressured while they are mindlessly setting up their pieces.

Hi!

I do the same, I think if you have both Slav and Caro-Kann in your repertoire is a perfectly valid move order. You can play that against everything.

If you would like to see my full solid repertoire you could check out my post: https://www.chess.com/blog/maafernan/a-solid-opening-repertoire-for-speed-chess

Good luck!

Hmm.. I'd say the Slav should still be fine against the London ... but Black simply got outplayed in that game. He made some positional concessions, and White steadily punished him for it.

I'd say Black would've had an easier time with ...Qb6 instead of ...b6, and also keeping his strong central pawn on d5, instead of trading it away for White's c-pawn.

The c6 Bf4 > immediate Qb6 line is interesting against the London. It's objectively on par with the main lines of the london and it mixes up Qb6, I'd be happy playing this.

In a club or tournament setting where your opponents can prepare, and you may play multiple games against the same opponent, it does limit your ability to mix things up... So perhaps not ideal in a tournament setting, you get very predictable, but there's no concern online where it's just 1 game and no targeted prep against you.

The move 1... c6 makes sense as an alternative to 1... d5, but it's worth noting 1... Nf6 has some stronger c5/Qb6 lines against the London than either 1... d5 or 1... c6.

A slav or triangle player is typically going to open 1... d5, there are some strong early gambits such as the noteboom, 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 dxc4, etc.. And here c6 is a viable alternative if you prefer to face the london that way.

A semi-slav player can go the 1... Nf6 > 2... c6 the slav-indian route and get a better game against the london via 1... Nf6 > 2... c5. That'd be a reason I can see not to open 1... c6 first, if you just want to get these strong anti-london lines after 1... Nf6. The slav-indian is another move order that works well in an online setting.

Of course you do give the opponent an opportunity to play 2... e4 and go into a caro-kann. I think you can assume usually your opponent will be mostly a d4 player, so it's not really too big of a deal in an online setting that you're giving this extra option. It could start to matter as you climb higher and encounter players who are more flexible. Personally I actually much prefer facing the caro-kann to the slav or semi-slav. Looking at the numbers it's about 14% of players who are choosing the caro-kann over the slav at 2200+ elo... you should probably assume they're doing that for a reason, and they prefer to face the kann.

Maybe this is the biggest issue with it... you're basically asking whether the c6 > Bf4 > immediate Qb6 line - whether you like this line enough that it justifies giving an online opponent at your level who started d4 the extra option of playing the Kann. Personally I think any way of mixing up the London while applying pressure is good and probably it's worth it in an online setting.

its a completely respectable way of playing agaisnt 1.d4 provided you ready for all the transposition possibilities. the closest thing to a punishment would be playing 2.nf3 and arguing that black has nothing better to play d5 where 2.c6 is completely fine albeit a bit premature limiting options.

there is very limited independent value to 1.c6 unfortunately, although this is one funny trap line. Actually, ignoring this trap, if white defends his center , this expedited st george is actually not that bad for black. Still ,you prob better off sticking to caro kahn and slavs.

There's independent value. Many interesting lines here against the london -

Most players play b3 there even if it's not ideal. And this is basically a czech pirc setup but it's very improved, engine thinks it's +0.13, czech pirc is usually like +0.4 for white

i mean thats fair, but most london players have a healthy aversion to qb6 maneuvers to play 2.bf4 here, you just begging to be punished.

At 2200+ it's 8% of players who play 2. Bf4 vs. 1... c6, and 10% vs. 1.. d5. So it's only 1 in 5 london players who are too frightened to continue with their normal move.

If you do force a Bf4 player to change it up and play Nf3 it's still an interesting line... there are many lines where Nh5 is good... the engine thinks these lines are almost equal, and they're not your typical london patterns by any means. This can also be reached via the slav-indian so it's useful for semi-slav players -

Just FYI: London players don't need to go through contortions against ...Qb6.

White can ignore the b2 pawn and allow Black to have it, if he wants. White gets compensation from his easier and quicker development.

The Black queen is misplaced on b2, and Black will have to spend time manuevering her back into play later on. White can then use the semi-open b-file to help pressure Black's queenside.

So Black wins a pawn, but White gets easier play in exchange for it. Both sides can argue that they got what they wanted ...

It's kind of a strange line... because after 3. Nf3 Nf6 black can keep that tension and whites best move is 4. Qc1 despite 4... Qxb2 being too early. But there's no other great 4th move for white... White doesn't want to play e3 too soon due to Nh5 losing the bishop, and the moment c3 is played Qxb2 becomes very good... 4. Nbd2 is also an option but here 4.. Nh5 5. Be3 and 5... Qxb2 is now a good followup.

Weird line - the weirder the better I say.

Kind of reminds me of the chameleon slav in terms of strangeness.

Infact... you could enter this via the slav-indian, 1... Nf6 2. Nf3 c6 3. Bf4, as part of a chameleon slav repertoire... which avoids the CK. That's probably how I'd play it.