Forums

Pioneering Female Chess Champ Sues Netflix over "Queen's Gambit" Slight!!!

Sort:
mpaetz
JamieDelarosa wrote:

Gaprindashvili's GM title was a gift from FIDE, because she had not played enough games at the norm, to qualify under the rules of the time.

     The reason that FIDE made an exception for her was that at that time the only tournaments strong enough that a participant could make a GM norm were invitation only. Gaprindashvili easily qualified by results and rating, but was invited to qualified tournaments that totaled only 23 games rather than the required 24. She could have gone 1-9 in any other tournament that barely qualified for GM norms and still made GM. FIDE didn't want to look like they were deliberately discriminating against women. Besides, no male GM she played ever claimed she didn't deserve the title.

DaMaGor
mpaetz wrote:
JamieDelarosa wrote:

Gaprindashvili's GM title was a gift from FIDE, because she had not played enough games at the norm, to qualify under the rules of the time.

     The reason that FIDE made an exception for her was that at that time the only tournaments strong enough that a participant could make a GM norm were invitation only. Gaprindashvili easily qualified by results and rating, but was invited to qualified tournaments that totaled only 23 games rather than the required 24. She could have gone 1-9 in any other tournament that barely qualified for GM norms and still made GM. FIDE didn't want to look like they were deliberately discriminating against women. Besides, no male GM she played ever claimed she didn't deserve the title.

Wasn't one of her norms from Lone Pine, a Swiss open to anyone above a certain rating?

My understanding is that she was far from the only one to get a title despite not having quite enough games in her norm tournaments by the standards of the time.  I believe the rating requirement was 2450 at the time, not 2500; by the current standards, she wouldn't have earned the title (other than by being women's world champion) since she never reached 2500.

mpaetz

     The Lone Pine tournament entry requirements varied from year to year. In 1977 (when Gaprindashvili tied for first) a rating of 2350 (2250 or juniors) or the IM or GM title was required. Average rating was 2410. It was a strong enough tournament that GM norms could be made. The fact that she could only get into two norm-eligible tournaments just makes the situation look that much worse.

     The fact that there were so few GM-norm tournaments open to women at the time, and few enough tournaments where norms could be earned at all, led FIDE to be a bit flexible with their requirements. For example, there were no GM tournaments in India in 1977, which made it next-to-impossible far an Indian player to get a GM norm. Over the years, as the number of GMs increased, more and more tournaments had a sufficiently strong field and relaxed-enough entry requirements to let aspiring GMs run around the world playing as many times as possible in order to get the title.

     That Gaprindashvili's top rating was 2495 is partly due to the fact that she couldn't participate in enough tournaments with higher-rated players to earn many rating points. Considering 40+ years of slowly-creeping rating inflation five points seems insignificant.

     

jetoba
mpaetz wrote:
JamieDelarosa wrote:

Gaprindashvili's GM title was a gift from FIDE, because she had not played enough games at the norm, to qualify under the rules of the time.

     The reason that FIDE made an exception for her was that at that time the only tournaments strong enough that a participant could make a GM norm were invitation only. Gaprindashvili easily qualified by results and rating, but was invited to qualified tournaments that totaled only 23 games rather than the required 24. She could have gone 1-9 in any other tournament that barely qualified for GM norms and still made GM. FIDE didn't want to look like they were deliberately discriminating against women. Besides, no male GM she played ever claimed she didn't deserve the title.

The current norm requirements need each cited tournament to have a norm-level result and 1-9 would not be a norm level result.  We the rules different enough back then for a 1-9 result to be enough?

mpaetz

     Just pointing out how ridiculous it is to quibble about her GM title. If the tournaments she played in were each two games longer and she had lost most of those games she would have qualified. The only reason she couldn't get enough games to qualify was that there were so few qualifying tournaments open to women. 

JamieDelarosa

It isn't "quibbbling."  It is just a statement of fact.  The point is acknowledged in her wikipedia bio.

 

mpaetz

     Do you claim she didn't deserve the GM title?

JamieDelarosa

She, perhaps, deserved it, but did not earn it under the then-existing norm requirements.

mpaetz

     Perhaps that was FIDE acknowledging the imperfection of their system.

kartikeya_tiwari

I just find it funny that in USA people sue everyone for small things. Suing seems to be a big thing over there lmao

JamieDelarosa
mpaetz wrote:

     Perhaps that was FIDE acknowledging the imperfection of their system.

 Could be, but why have norms if you don't enforce them?

JamieDelarosa
kartikeya_tiwari wrote:

I just find it funny that in USA people sue everyone for small things. Suing seems to be a big thing over there lmao

 

Gaprindashvili brought suit in the US, because Netflix is based here.  She is a resident of the former Soviet Georgia.

Her lawsuit is meritless.

Barney-Boondoggle

Ok, let's stop nattering on about this.  It's in the hands of the courts now, and there's nothing any of you can do by endlessly prattling here about your opinions.  Opinions which will have absolutely no bearing on the case's ultimate disposition.

Let's make a deal:  we'll let this thread lie quiescent until the case is over, and then we talk about the case after it concludes.

Now, I could just temporarily block anyone who posts here before that, which would effectively shut down the thread, but chess.com is a community based on mutual respect, and above all, trust.  Or at least I'd like to believe that.  So do we have a deal?  Yes we do.

Thread Deactivated.

lfPatriotGames
Barney-Boondoggle wrote:

Ok, let's stop nattering on about this.  It's in the hands of the courts now, and there's nothing any of you can do by endlessly prattling here about your opinions.  Opinions which will have absolutely no bearing on the case's ultimate disposition.

Let's make a deal:  we'll let this thread lie quiescent until the case is over, and then we talk about the case after it concludes.

Now, I could just temporarily block anyone who posts here before that, which would effectively shut down the thread, but chess.com is a community bases on mutual respect, and above all, trust.  Or at least I'd like to believe that.  So do we have a deal?  Yes we do.

Thread Deactivated.

Well it's a legitimate topic of conversation, so there's that. I'm not sure I understand your point about opinions that have no bearing on the outcome of the situation. 99.99% of the time that's exactly what opinions are. This is no different. 

Look on the bright side, the case is probably already over. It never had a leg to stand on in the first place. 

mpaetz
JamieDelarosa wrote:
mpaetz wrote:

     Perhaps that was FIDE acknowledging the imperfection of their system.

 Could be, but why have norms if you don't enforce them?

     FIDE's system is their best guess at how to categorize the strength of top players and regulate the awarding of titles. The requirements for GM qualification have developed over quite a few years and have been adjusted several times. The rules for how to run tournaments that can award norms have been tinkered with regularly. During their examination of their own regulations, FIDE sometimes notices instances where their methods are inadequate for measuring top chess talent, and they make special adjustments in individual cases. If you don't believe FIDE knows what it is doing, how can you believe ANY GM title is absolutely legitimate?

     Again, do you believe that Gprindashvili was GM strength or not?

Barney-Boondoggle

JamieDelarosa

Well, the way it started, IGM titles, were awarded for outstanding results, like winning the very strong tournaments, qualifying for the candidates' tournament or matches - i.e. being a "world class" players.  In 1950 there were 27 living IGMs.  What are there now?  1800?  Did Gaprindashvili ever obtain world class distinctions?  Did she ever even play in a Zonal, or with the men in Olympiads?

If anything she is a second class or third class IGM

mpaetz
JamieDelarosa wrote:

Well, the way it started, IGM titles, were awarded for outstanding results, like winning the very strong tournaments, qualifying for the candidates' tournament or matches - i.e. being a "world class" players.  In 1950 there were 27 living IGMs.  What are there now?  1800?  Did Gaprindashvili ever obtain world class distinctions?  Did she ever even play in a Zonal, or with the men in Olympiads?

If anything she is a second class or third class IGM

     Nona Gaprindashvili was womens' world champion for 17 years. Is that not "world class" enough for you? That she didn't qualify for zonal tournaments or get chosen for Olympiad teams in the Soviet Union makes her no different from dozens of men whose GM titles are never doubted. The sheer numbers of top-class GMs in the Soviet Union kept lesser (though still GM-strength) players out of premier events. That 1700 of today's 1800 GMs aren't able to contend for top prizes at the biggest tournaments or challenge for the world championship doesn't mean they are not GMs. Gaprindashvili was undoubtedly of GM caliber, even if not of super-GM strength.

lfPatriotGames

I didn't even know who Nona was until the lawsuit was filed. In the movie I didn't remember the line probably because it sounded like a made up name. But to sue over something so trivial makes me wonder a little bit about her ability and/or confidence. I'm sure she was a great chess player, but it's not normal to get upset over something so insignificant. 

Not to dismiss her chess ability in any way, as I'm sure she was one of the best, but it looks like she has a lot of growing up to do. 

Jenium
Ginarook wrote:

And Beth Harmon is still 1-2 down v the Russian man

In a game between Beth and Nona, I'd place my money on Nona! No doubt.