FIDE Transgender Policies - Chess Forums - Page 21

MiguelUAB

Aug 23, 2023

0

#401

lonniespiel wrote:

MiguelUAB wrote:

lonniespiel wrote:

NotMagnusCarlesn wrote:

ok, i'm not saying that men are better then women in chess or that women are dumb, but think of it this way. The top women player in the world has less elo than magnus, so magnus could say he was trans, and then farm elo in the women's world cup. so that's basically the policy

No, Magnus can't just say he is trans. There is a process for transitioning which takes on average 2-3 years including medical procedures and psychological evaluations. Then you have to be legally recognised by the law which not all countries do.

FIDE and bigots are scaremongering. It's not an issue in chess

In Spain it is only necessary to go to the administration at any given moment and state that you want to change your sex in the register. Three months after that you have to come back to sign some papers and that's it. You don't need to visit the doctor a single time and nor change your physical aspect or social attitudes.

In fact the politician responsible of this law said that this was a necessary step to "unpathologize" the fact of being trans. Which therefore is what she would think that you are doing by assuming as a given that all the process you mentioned is necessary.

It is already happening.

I didn't know about this. Excellent, it seems that Spain are taking seriously UN guidelines outlining what States should be doing to prohibit discrimination against and safeguard freedom of expression of all LGBT people.

Good job Spain

Amazing. You defend that is scaremonging to state that any person can claim any sex for any reason at any given moment and your very next post defend that is a good job that is happening and every country should do that.

Simply amazing. Not logical. Not in a positive way. But definitely an amazing way of processing reality. Exactly what I was referring in my first post.

lonniespiel

Aug 23, 2023

0

#402

MiguelUAB wrote:

lonniespiel wrote:

MiguelUAB wrote:

lonniespiel wrote:

NotMagnusCarlesn wrote:

ok, i'm not saying that men are better then women in chess or that women are dumb, but think of it this way. The top women player in the world has less elo than magnus, so magnus could say he was trans, and then farm elo in the women's world cup. so that's basically the policy

No, Magnus can't just say he is trans. There is a process for transitioning which takes on average 2-3 years including medical procedures and psychological evaluations. Then you have to be legally recognised by the law which not all countries do.

FIDE and bigots are scaremongering. It's not an issue in chess

In Spain it is only necessary to go to the administration at any given moment and state that you want to change your sex in the register. Three months after that you have to come back to sign some papers and that's it. You don't need to visit the doctor a single time and nor change your physical aspect or social attitudes.

In fact the politician responsible of this law said that this was a necessary step to "unpathologize" the fact of being trans. Which therefore is what she would think that you are doing by assuming as a given that all the process you mentioned is necessary.

It is already happening.

I didn't know about this. Excellent, it seems that Spain are taking seriously UN guidelines outlining what States should be doing to prohibit discrimination against and safeguard freedom of expression of all LGBT people.

Good job Spain

Amazing. You defend that is scaremonging to state that any person can claim any sex for any reason at any given moment and your very next post defend that is a good job that is happening and every country should do that.

Simply amazing. Not logical. Not in a positive way. But definitely an amazing way of processing reality. Exactly what I was referring in my first post.

My position is very logical. FIDE are not addressing issues which are relevant to chess, eg. cheating, sexual harassment, Russian participation/sponsorship etc. Instead they are targeting a group that has very little presence in chess in the unlikely event that it might become an issue sometime in the future, though what issue isn't even specified. If that isn't scaremongering, then I'm not sure what is?

MiguelUAB

Aug 23, 2023

0

#403

lonniespiel wrote:

MiguelUAB wrote:

lonniespiel wrote:

MiguelUAB wrote:

lonniespiel wrote:

NotMagnusCarlesn wrote:

ok, i'm not saying that men are better then women in chess or that women are dumb, but think of it this way. The top women player in the world has less elo than magnus, so magnus could say he was trans, and then farm elo in the women's world cup. so that's basically the policy

No, Magnus can't just say he is trans. There is a process for transitioning which takes on average 2-3 years including medical procedures and psychological evaluations. Then you have to be legally recognised by the law which not all countries do.

FIDE and bigots are scaremongering. It's not an issue in chess

In Spain it is only necessary to go to the administration at any given moment and state that you want to change your sex in the register. Three months after that you have to come back to sign some papers and that's it. You don't need to visit the doctor a single time and nor change your physical aspect or social attitudes.

In fact the politician responsible of this law said that this was a necessary step to "unpathologize" the fact of being trans. Which therefore is what she would think that you are doing by assuming as a given that all the process you mentioned is necessary.

It is already happening.

I didn't know about this. Excellent, it seems that Spain are taking seriously UN guidelines outlining what States should be doing to prohibit discrimination against and safeguard freedom of expression of all LGBT people.

Good job Spain

Amazing. You defend that is scaremonging to state that any person can claim any sex for any reason at any given moment and your very next post defend that is a good job that is happening and every country should do that.

Simply amazing. Not logical. Not in a positive way. But definitely an amazing way of processing reality. Exactly what I was referring in my first post.

My position is very logical. FIDE are not addressing issues which are relevant to chess, eg. cheating, sexual harassment, Russian participation/sponsorship etc. Instead they are targeting a group that has very little presence in chess in the unlikely event that it might become an issue sometime in the future, though what issue isn't even specified. If that isn't scaremongering, then I'm not sure what is?

You were referring to scaremongering when another guy in this thread posted that if anybody can change sex, potentially Magnus could do that and then win the women world championship. Then your reply said that that is not happening because is necessary a whole process that takes 2 years involving hormones and so on.

Now you are addressing it differently to fit with your prejudice but the thing is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say first that is not happening and the next post that is wonderful that is happening.

That said. I have nothing against trans people and the ones that should be addressing this because are the ones impacted with this decision are women as they are the ones who have their own tournaments segregated from the open tournament. In my opinion they should vote and decide what to do. Not me and not you. So let's stop pretending that one of us has the final say in this or the absolute truth about what to do.

removedusername8329742834

Aug 23, 2023

0

#404

Botvinnik_the_6th wrote:

AngryPuffer wrote:

Botvinnik_the_6th wrote:

AngryPuffer wrote:

Botvinnik_the_6th wrote:

AngryPuffer wrote:

Botvinnik_the_6th wrote:

AngryPuffer wrote:

Botvinnik_the_6th wrote:

AngryPuffer wrote:

Botvinnik_the_6th wrote:

AngryPuffer wrote:

Botvinnik_the_6th wrote:

AngryPuffer wrote:

whisper2016 wrote:

Botvinnik_the_6th wrote:

whisper2016 wrote:

Syntax_Error_64 wrote:

And anyway, what harm do we actually cause? What 'proof' is there that trans women have a "biological advantage" in chess? Or are in any way harmful to women in general?

The fact that Magnus Carlson would body Judit at her prime 💀

The logic!

top players are all men man, just what I see

exactly. why is the best female player 2620 and the best male 2840? theres obviously a male advantage

Not necessarily a biological advantage.

then what is it

There are a well known collection of factors for why women are underrepresented in top level chess and chess in general (and one of these factors is misogynists like yourself ).

that does not answer the question

I've already listed such factors in previous responses in this thread, I believe including to you specifically, as have many others. A quick google search will give you countless sources on what these social factors are. At this point it's on you that you aren't aware of this.

prove it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_chess#:~:text=The%20researchers%20argued%20that%20gender,defensively%20which%20worsened%20their%20performance.

https://slate.com/technology/2020/12/why-are-the-best-chess-players-men.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2679077/

https://www.fide.com/news/1685

https://www.gamesver.com/the-chess-gender-gap-reasons-why-chess-is-so-male-dominated/#:~:text=Males%20dominate%20the%20chess%20scene,%2C%20economic%2C%20and%20cultural%20factors.

https://chess24.com/en/read/news/tkachiev-why-do-men-dominate-chess

Here's a range of scientific, official and contemporary sources. Educate yourself.

b

"If one group (female chess players) is much smaller than another (male chess players), then just by chance, one would expect that the best member of the larger group outperforms the best member of the smaller group."

No. the best player would outplay everyone else

"To explain this, I like to use a thought experiment. Imagine that you gather 12 people and randomly give 10 of them a blue hat and two a green hat. You then randomly assign to each person a number between 1 and 100. "

the quality of chess that you play is not random. you do better if you grind out those hours to get better. this does not correlate

"Let’s start with the statistics. A 2008 study"

The study had nothing to do with proving women are equal in chess

"there is, in reality, very little performance gap between men and women"

magnus is currently rated 2859 (top male chess player)

hou yifan is currently rated 2629 (top female chess player)

the gap is large

"Multiple studies have found that women chess players play worse against men than against other women, while men modify their playing style when facing women – they take longer to resign against women and play riskier openings against attractive females. "

that does not mean women are the same as men, that just shows that men can play better when playing more sharper, agressive style. thats the womans problem if she cant handle that

Okay. basic maths/statistics:
If you gathered a group of 90 male chess players (at random) and a group of 10 female chess players (at random). Let's say their ratings are completely random; what is the chance that the best chess player in the group will be a male? The chance is 90% that the best player will be a male. The best player has a 90% chance of being male and a 10% chance of being female if ratings are assigned at random. This is pretty easy to understand statistics. That's what the study is indicating with it's version of this thought experiment.
This study is not talking about the gap between the best female player and the best male player, it's about how the fact that way more men play chess make male's better on average and far more likely to be the top players. Another study that I believe I cited found that 96% of differences between men and women's play can be explained by sample size. (this one: https://phys.org/news/2009-01-men-higher-women-chess-biological.html)

if their ratings were completely randomized then whoever actually had the best real rating and played the best would win

What about this aren't you understanding?
Yes the person who has the highest randomised elo would win but in my example there are more men than women so the person with the highest elo is far more likely to be male. (90% vs 10%). Read it again if you need.

ofc but that does not matter, ofc thats true

and no the person with the highest randomised elo would not win because that elo would not reflect their actual skill

why arent the top women who have dedicated themselves to chess nowhere as good as the top male chess players

No, you're really not understanding this. Think of elo instead as a random number and we're looking for the person with the highest random number. Because there are more males (90%) to females (10%) the person with the highest number has a 90% chance of also being male.

And we would expect to have 10 females among the best 100 players, yet there are 0 for which the chance is 90%^100=0.00002656139.

So maybe your idea is just wrong...

So maybe your model is a bit off....

lonniespiel

Aug 23, 2023

0

#405

MiguelUAB wrote:

lonniespiel wrote:

MiguelUAB wrote:

lonniespiel wrote:

MiguelUAB wrote:

lonniespiel wrote:

NotMagnusCarlesn wrote:

ok, i'm not saying that men are better then women in chess or that women are dumb, but think of it this way. The top women player in the world has less elo than magnus, so magnus could say he was trans, and then farm elo in the women's world cup. so that's basically the policy

No, Magnus can't just say he is trans. There is a process for transitioning which takes on average 2-3 years including medical procedures and psychological evaluations. Then you have to be legally recognised by the law which not all countries do.

FIDE and bigots are scaremongering. It's not an issue in chess

In Spain it is only necessary to go to the administration at any given moment and state that you want to change your sex in the register. Three months after that you have to come back to sign some papers and that's it. You don't need to visit the doctor a single time and nor change your physical aspect or social attitudes.

In fact the politician responsible of this law said that this was a necessary step to "unpathologize" the fact of being trans. Which therefore is what she would think that you are doing by assuming as a given that all the process you mentioned is necessary.

It is already happening.

I didn't know about this. Excellent, it seems that Spain are taking seriously UN guidelines outlining what States should be doing to prohibit discrimination against and safeguard freedom of expression of all LGBT people.

Good job Spain

Amazing. You defend that is scaremonging to state

that any person can claim any sex for any reason at any given moment and your very next post defend that is a good job that is happening and every country should do that.

Simply amazing. Not logical. Not in a positive way. But definitely an amazing way of processing reality. Exactly what I was referring in my first post.

My position is very logical. FIDE are not addressing issues which are relevant to chess, eg. cheating, sexual harassment, Russian participation/sponsorship etc. Instead they are targeting a group that has very little presence in chess in the unlikely event that it might become an issue sometime in the future, though what issue isn't even specified. If that isn't scaremongering, then I'm not sure what is?

You were referring to scaremongering when another guy in this thread posted that if anybody can change sex, potentially Magnus could do that and then win the women world championship. Then your reply said that that is not happening because is necessary a whole process that takes 2 years involving hormones and so on.

Now you are addressing it differently to fit with your prejudice but the thing is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say first that is not happening and the next post that is wonderful that is happening.

That said. I have nothing against trans people and the ones that should be addressing this because are the ones impacted with this decision are women as they are the ones who have their own tournaments segregated from the open tournament. In my opinion they should vote and decide what to do. Not me and not you. So let's stop pretending that one of us has the final say in this or the absolute truth about what to do.

My position hasn't changed through the whole thread, and I joined on page 1. I believe transgender people should have the same rights as the gender they are legally accepted as. So therefore I'm happy that Spain is accommodating the trans community.

But let's be real. Spain is one country, and the majority of the world don't even accept trans rights. Most of the countries that do make the transition process tough.

So, in my opinion, the likelihood of a top player transitioning to move into a less lucrative, smaller pool seems fairly ridiculous to me. And even if they do, I believe they should have the rights that their legal gender affirm.

What I am saying is that it isn't happening in chess, not that it isn't happening. And therefore, it's a non issue in chess at the moment, so why are FIDE bothering about it when there are real issues to go after?

Funnily enough, earlier in this thread I suggested exactly the same about letting women have their say, but it was ignored, so on that score we agree

Coddiwompler

Aug 23, 2023

0

#406

lonniespiel wrote:

MiguelUAB wrote:

lonniespiel wrote:

NotMagnusCarlesn wrote:

ok, i'm not saying that men are better then women in chess or that women are dumb, but think of it this way. The top women player in the world has less elo than magnus, so magnus could say he was trans, and then farm elo in the women's world cup. so that's basically the policy

No, Magnus can't just say he is trans. There is a process for transitioning which takes on average 2-3 years including medical procedures and psychological evaluations. Then you have to be legally recognised by the law which not all countries do.

FIDE and bigots are scaremongering. It's not an issue in chess

In Spain it is only necessary to go to the administration at any given moment and state that you want to change your sex in the register. Three months after that you have to come back to sign some papers and that's it. You don't need to visit the doctor a single time and nor change your physical aspect or social attitudes.

In fact the politician responsible of this law said that this was a necessary step to "unpathologize" the fact of being trans. Which therefore is what she would think that you are doing by assuming as a given that all the process you mentioned is necessary.

It is already happening.

I didn't know about this. Excellent, it seems that Spain are taking seriously UN guidelines outlining what States should be doing to prohibit discrimination against and safeguard freedom of expression of all LGBT people.

Good job Spain

it must be an insanity of sorts

MightierQ

Aug 23, 2023

0

#407

Coddiwompler wrote:

it must be an insanity of sorts

The American Psychiatric Association - a presumably solid authority on the subject of insanity - supports gender-affirming medical care for transgender individuals. Surely if any org had a vested interest in maintaining 'transgenderism' as a condition treatable by psychiatric counseling it would be them, right? But no, they say go ahead and use gender-affirming medical care as part of transitioning to present as one's 'new' gender.

So people on the street 'looking at them strangely wondering why they are still playing make believe', deliberately using wrong pronouns, or just mocking trans folk are (medically speaking) doing the same thing (if not worse than) mocking a woman that has had a mastectomy from breast cancer or mocking a man that has had an orchiectomy from testicular cancer. It's deliberately hurtful and frankly un-Christian, given a Bible that says absolutely NOTHING about transgender folks but says a lot about loving one's neighbor no matter who they are.

To the folks saying that championship chess involves stamina and endurance, I'll note that blocking Testosterone (which M2F HRT does, alongside boosting Estrogen) results in lowering both. For me personally, the first year or so into HRT my 5k times at the gym went down about 20%.

YEAT

Aug 23, 2023

0

#408

MightierQ wrote:

Coddiwompler wrote:

it must be an insanity of sorts

The American Psychiatric Association - a presumably solid authority on the subject of insanity - supports gender-affirming medical care for transgender individuals. Surely if any org had a vested interest in maintaining 'transgenderism' as a condition treatable by psychiatric counseling it would be them, right? But no, they say go ahead and use gender-affirming medical care as part of transitioning to present as one's 'new' gender.

So people on the street 'looking at them strangely wondering why they are still playing make believe', deliberately using wrong pronouns, or just mocking trans folk are (medically speaking) doing the same thing (if not worse than) mocking a woman that has had a mastectomy from breast cancer or mocking a man that has had an orchiectomy from testicular cancer. It's deliberately hurtful and frankly un-Christian, given a Bible that says absolutely NOTHING about transgender folks but says a lot about loving one's neighbor no matter who they are.

To the folks saying that championship chess involves stamina and endurance, I'll note that blocking Testosterone (which M2F HRT does, alongside boosting Estrogen) results in lowering both. For me personally, the first year or so into HRT my 5k times at the gym went down about 20%.

MightierQ

Aug 23, 2023

0

#409

YEAT wrote:

MightierQ wrote:

Coddiwompler wrote:

it must be an insanity of sorts

The American Psychiatric Association...

TLDR; The APA recommends transitioning, so folks deliberately using wrong pronouns or mocking trans folk are not just being unChristian, they're also being jerks. And HRT reduces stamina for trans women compared to testosterone-fueled men.
That abbreviated enough for you?

Coddiwompler

Aug 23, 2023

0

#410

Kyobir wrote:

I feel like some sort of protest should happen...

What do you mean?

Kyobir

Aug 23, 2023

0

#411

Coddiwompler wrote:

Kyobir wrote:

I feel like some sort of protest should happen...

What do you mean?

idk, like some sort of boycott of FIDE or something

Kyobir

Aug 23, 2023

0

#412

I have an idea: REMOVE THE WOMEN'S DIVISION.

Coddiwompler

Aug 23, 2023

0

#413

Kyobir wrote:

Coddiwompler wrote:

Kyobir wrote:

I feel like some sort of protest should happen...

What do you mean?

idk, like some sort of boycott of FIDE or something

How would you do it without FIDE?

Coddiwompler

Aug 23, 2023

0

#414

Kyobir wrote:

I have an idea: REMOVE THE WOMEN'S DIVISION.

Agree 100%

whisper2016

Aug 23, 2023

0

#415

Coddiwompler wrote:

Kyobir wrote:

I have an idea: REMOVE THE WOMEN'S DIVISION.

Agree 100%

Kyobir

Aug 23, 2023

0

#416

Coddiwompler wrote:

Kyobir wrote:

Coddiwompler wrote:

Kyobir wrote:

I feel like some sort of protest should happen...

What do you mean?

idk, like some sort of boycott of FIDE or something

How would you do it without FIDE?

Not me, but trans women fide tournament players can do what magnus did against hans niemann and just not show up.

MightierQ

Aug 24, 2023

0

#417

Kyobir wrote:

Coddiwompler wrote:

Kyobir wrote:

Coddiwompler wrote:

Kyobir wrote:

I feel like some sort of protest should happen...

What do you mean?

idk, like some sort of boycott of FIDE or something

How would you do it without FIDE?

Not me, but trans women fide tournament players can do what magnus did against hans niemann and just not show up.

Indeed, though I think trans women FIDE tournament players even collectively have quite a bit less influence than Carlsen does individually as one of the greatest players ever. They are no more than 1-2% of the general population and show up more in the younger age brackets.
Though it's intriguing to think about how fast FIDE would recalculate if Magnus and/or a few other top players stopped showing up in solidarity with the trans folk.

Coddiwompler

Aug 24, 2023

0

#418

MightierQ wrote:

They are no more than 1-2% of the general population and show up more in the younger age brackets.

I wonder why

MightierQ

Aug 24, 2023

0

#419

Coddiwompler wrote:

MightierQ wrote:

They are no more than 1-2% of the general population and show up more in the younger age brackets.

I wonder why

Because folks that have transitioned earlier than the last few years tended to completely erase any indication that they were anything other than their current gender (else be socially ostracized or worse) so they don't show up in surveys, and those same social pressures prevented anyone except the most extremely dysphoric from pursuing transition. Nowadays with widespread social awareness/acceptance and better access to gender-affirming medical care, transgender folks tend to figure themselves out much sooner than I did.

Badchesserrr4486999

Aug 24, 2023

0

#420

MightierQ написал:

Coddiwompler wrote:

MightierQ wrote:

They are no more than 1-2% of the general population and show up more in the younger age brackets.

I wonder why

Because folks that have transitioned earlier than the last few years tended to completely erase any indication that they were anything other than their current gender (else be socially ostracized or worse) so they don't show up in surveys, and those same social pressures prevented anyone except the most extremely dysphoric from pursuing transition. Nowadays with widespread social awareness/acceptance and better access to gender-affirming medical care, transgender folks tend to figure themselves out much sooner than I did.

Soo you are trans?