Forums

FIDE Transgender Policies

Sort:
MightierQ
Badchesserrr4486999 wrote:
MightierQ написал:
Coddiwompler wrote:
MightierQ wrote:
 

They are no more than 1-2% of the general population and show up more in the younger age brackets.

I wonder why

Because folks that have transitioned earlier than the last few years tended to completely erase any indication that they were anything other than their current gender (else be socially ostracized or worse) so they don't show up in surveys, and those same social pressures prevented anyone except the most extremely dysphoric from pursuing transition. Nowadays with widespread social awareness/acceptance and better access to gender-affirming medical care, transgender folks tend to figure themselves out much sooner than I did.

Soo you are trans?

I am indeed!

Coddiwompler
MightierQ wrote:
Kyobir wrote:
Coddiwompler wrote:
Kyobir wrote:
Coddiwompler wrote:
Kyobir wrote:

I feel like some sort of protest should happen...

What do you mean?

idk, like some sort of boycott of FIDE or something

How would you do it without FIDE?

Not me, but trans women fide tournament players can do what magnus did against hans niemann and just not show up.

Indeed, though I think trans women FIDE tournament players even collectively have quite a bit less influence than Carlsen does individually as one of the greatest players ever. They are no more than 1-2% of the general population and show up more in the younger age brackets.
Though it's intriguing to think about how fast FIDE would recalculate if Magnus and/or a few other top players stopped showing up in solidarity with the trans folk.

Not everyone agrees with this

MightierQ
Coddiwompler wrote:
MightierQ wrote:
Kyobir wrote:
Coddiwompler wrote:
Kyobir wrote:
Coddiwompler wrote:
Kyobir wrote:

I feel like some sort of protest should happen...

What do you mean?

idk, like some sort of boycott of FIDE or something

How would you do it without FIDE?

Not me, but trans women fide tournament players can do what magnus did against hans niemann and just not show up.

Indeed, though I think trans women FIDE tournament players even collectively have quite a bit less influence than Carlsen does individually as one of the greatest players ever. They are no more than 1-2% of the general population and show up more in the younger age brackets.
Though it's intriguing to think about how fast FIDE would recalculate if Magnus and/or a few other top players stopped showing up in solidarity with the trans folk.

Not everyone agrees with this

You should be more specific, and less passive.

Coddiwompler
MightierQ wrote:
Coddiwompler wrote:
MightierQ wrote:
Kyobir wrote:
Coddiwompler wrote:
Kyobir wrote:
Coddiwompler wrote:
Kyobir wrote:

I feel like some sort of protest should happen...

What do you mean?

idk, like some sort of boycott of FIDE or something

How would you do it without FIDE?

Not me, but trans women fide tournament players can do what magnus did against hans niemann and just not show up.

Indeed, though I think trans women FIDE tournament players even collectively have quite a bit less influence than Carlsen does individually as one of the greatest players ever. They are no more than 1-2% of the general population and show up more in the younger age brackets.
Though it's intriguing to think about how fast FIDE would recalculate if Magnus and/or a few other top players stopped showing up in solidarity with the trans folk.

Not everyone agrees with this

You should be more specific, and less passive.

chessdotcom won't allow me

lfPatriotGames
Kyobir wrote:

I have an idea: REMOVE THE WOMEN'S DIVISION.

Current trends aside, one does not have the ability to choose whether or not they are a woman. So discriminating against women does not seem like a very good idea.

To make it "fair" for everyone we could remove the junior division too. Chess players who are 8 years old may not have the ability to choose their age, so would it make sense to have 30 year olds and 8 year olds all play in the same division?

Recreational competitions usually have divisions based on criteria that separate people so that people of different classes and abilities can compete and enjoy the competition. People are equal in rights, they are not equal in talents or innate abilities. Having separate classes or divisions allows more people to enjoy the game. Reducing them will only reduce interest in the game.

ghstndshll

Because we are massively using phthalates, we are nuking our hormone levels for generations, so APA is forced to say that gender dysphoria is nothing bad, otherwise, we would have to change a lot of things in our lives and some people would have to admit that they knew, and didn't care, and prices of some food would skyrocket, something that every government will avoid at all cost.
Dr. Shana Swan on YouTube has a good video on that subject from a scientific perspective, it's called endocrine disruptors.

In reality, transitioning is not always so good, it has consequences, just like everything else. Hormones can affect literally everything that we do, so I don't think FIDE should respect transitioning. The best they could do would be to create some tournaments for non-binary people only, but medically non-binary, not imaginary, or Magnus will change his pronoun for one day and steal the price.

Badchesserrr4486999
ghstndshll написал:

Because we are massively using phthalates, we are nuking our hormone levels for generations, so APA is forced to say that gender dysphoria is nothing bad, otherwise, we would have to change a lot of things in our lives and some people would have to admit that they knew, and didn't care, and prices of some food would skyrocket, something that every government will avoid at all cost.
Dr. Shana Swan on YouTube has a good video on that subject from a scientific perspective, it's called endocrine disruptors.

In reality, transitioning is not always so good, it has consequences, just like everything else. Hormones can affect literally everything that we do, so I don't think FIDE should respect transitioning. The best they could do would be to create some tournaments for non-binary people only, but medically non-binary, not imaginary, or Magnus will change his pronoun for one day and steal the price.

Ngl if he did that, I would legit subscribe to his channel and never miss any uploads.

MightierQ
ghstndshll wrote:

Because we are massively using phthalates, we are nuking our hormone levels for generations, so APA is forced to say that gender dysphoria is nothing bad, otherwise, we would have to change a lot of things in our lives and some people would have to admit that they knew, and didn't care, and prices of some food would skyrocket, something that every government will avoid at all cost.
Dr. Shana Swan on YouTube has a good video on that subject from a scientific perspective, it's called endocrine disruptors.

In reality, transitioning is not always so good, it has consequences, just like everything else. Hormones can affect literally everything that we do, so I don't think FIDE should respect transitioning. The best they could do would be to create some tournaments for non-binary people only, but medically non-binary, not imaginary, or Magnus will change his pronoun for one day and steal the price.

"we are nuking our hormone levels for generations" - transgender folks' hormone levels are typically at very normal levels (for their gender assigned at birth) pre-HRT, so your conspiracy theory doesn't add up. Nor does the food price linkage, but whatever.
"Hormones can affect literally everything that we do, so I don't think FIDE should respect transitioning." - the second half of your statement does not logically follow from the first half.

Badchesserrr4486999
MightierQ написал:
ghstndshll wrote:

Because we are massively using phthalates, we are nuking our hormone levels for generations, so APA is forced to say that gender dysphoria is nothing bad, otherwise, we would have to change a lot of things in our lives and some people would have to admit that they knew, and didn't care, and prices of some food would skyrocket, something that every government will avoid at all cost.
Dr. Shana Swan on YouTube has a good video on that subject from a scientific perspective, it's called endocrine disruptors.

In reality, transitioning is not always so good, it has consequences, just like everything else. Hormones can affect literally everything that we do, so I don't think FIDE should respect transitioning. The best they could do would be to create some tournaments for non-binary people only, but medically non-binary, not imaginary, or Magnus will change his pronoun for one day and steal the price.

"we are nuking our hormone levels for generations" - transgender folks' hormone levels are typically at very normal levels (for their gender assigned at birth) pre-HRT, so your conspiracy theory doesn't add up. Nor does the food price linkage, but whatever.
"Hormones can affect literally everything that we do, so I don't think FIDE should respect transitioning." - the second half of your statement does not logically follow from the first half.

I feel like you are not making sense...
Pre HRT????
Soo are you telling me that because hormone levels get decreased after HRT, Then it isn't a problem?

MightierQ
Badchesserrr4486999 wrote:
MightierQ написал:
ghstndshll wrote:

Because we are massively using phthalates, we are nuking our hormone levels for generations, so APA is forced to say that gender dysphoria is nothing bad, otherwise, we would have to change a lot of things in our lives and some people would have to admit that they knew, and didn't care, and prices of some food would skyrocket, something that every government will avoid at all cost.
Dr. Shana Swan on YouTube has a good video on that subject from a scientific perspective, it's called endocrine disruptors.

In reality, transitioning is not always so good, it has consequences, just like everything else. Hormones can affect literally everything that we do, so I don't think FIDE should respect transitioning. The best they could do would be to create some tournaments for non-binary people only, but medically non-binary, not imaginary, or Magnus will change his pronoun for one day and steal the price.

"we are nuking our hormone levels for generations" - transgender folks' hormone levels are typically at very normal levels (for their gender assigned at birth) pre-HRT, so your conspiracy theory doesn't add up. Nor does the food price linkage, but whatever.
"Hormones can affect literally everything that we do, so I don't think FIDE should respect transitioning." - the second half of your statement does not logically follow from the first half.

I feel like you are not making sense...
Pre HRT????
Soo are you telling me that because hormone levels get decreased after HRT, Then it isn't a problem?

That isn't what I'm saying, no.
I'm saying historically there's no apparent correlation between a person's being transgender (or cisgender) and their lifelong hormone levels. Prior to my starting medical transitioning (so including HRT), my testosterone and estrogen levels were normal for a male of my age.
I started HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy) which lowered my testosterone and increased my estrogen to where I'm now at normal levels for an adult female. HRT is also more widely known as a treatment for post-menopausal women, women lacking ovary function for other reasons, or men lacking testicular function for any reason.

lfPatriotGames
ghstndshll wrote:

Because we are massively using phthalates, we are nuking our hormone levels for generations, so APA is forced to say that gender dysphoria is nothing bad, otherwise, we would have to change a lot of things in our lives and some people would have to admit that they knew, and didn't care, and prices of some food would skyrocket, something that every government will avoid at all cost.
Dr. Shana Swan on YouTube has a good video on that subject from a scientific perspective, it's called endocrine disruptors.

In reality, transitioning is not always so good, it has consequences, just like everything else. Hormones can affect literally everything that we do, so I don't think FIDE should respect transitioning. The best they could do would be to create some tournaments for non-binary people only, but medically non-binary, not imaginary, or Magnus will change his pronoun for one day and steal the price.

I don't think anyone needs a youtube video to realize and understand that human biology and chemistry is changing. Not just from our environment, such as pollution and pesticides, but also from the things that people voluntarily put in themselves. Nobody can even count the new drugs that are being pushed for various reason. The hormones and artificially created chemicals injected into both animal products we eat but also fruits and vegetables. Most corn is now Roundup ready. And people gobble it up and don't give a thought to what they are consuming.

The point about food prices is also pretty obvious. There is no way to economically grow healthy food on a very large scale.

chesslover0003
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
BrianErdelyi wrote:
MightierQ wrote:

Seriously, are people really claiming men are inherently better at chess than women?

Women make up only 28% of the workforce in science, technology, engineering and math (STEM). https://www.aauw.org/resources/research/the-stem-gap/

There are clearly a lot of underlying issues preventing women for pursing STEM. I expect some of those issues apply to women in chess as well. It's not that men are inherently better in STEM... possibly, it's that women are systemically disadvantaged.

FIDE is respecting gender markers on IDs... this is a good thing. Unfortunately, not all countries will allow this. I hope FIDE will come up with a solution to allow for such changes if an individual's country does not allow such changes.

the fact the chess situation has improved considerably since the polgar days for women yet their presence in top chess remains negligible heavily points agaisnt te systemic oppression narrative.

@darkunorthodox88 There is an interesting presentation on the FIDE website regarding gender gaps in chess. Source here.

A few interesting comments in the presentation:

  • The presentation discusses "performance" gaps and "participation" gaps.
  • Participation gap: Women represent 16% of the FIDE masters list. Women represent 11% of rated players.
  • Performance gap: women represent 1 out of top 100 adults. Woman represent 3 out of the top 100 juniors. Women represent 2% of grandmasters.
  • "Yes, things are improving, but slowly"
  • "Participation explains most, but not all, of the performance gap"
    • "Girls drop out at faster rates than boys at all ages. Dropout is especially severe after age 16" 
  • "Social factors negatively affect women’s performance"
  • "Some evidence biological factors affect the gap, but we don’t know exactly what, or how much"
Chessisfunforme

Did you guys even read the document? It clearly says that men that become women are not allowed to participate in women tournaments UNTIL FIDE decides whether or not to give them permission to and this decision will take a maximum of 2 years. This is to prevent men from abusing the policy.

chesslover0003
Chessisfunforme wrote:

Did you guys even read the document? It clearly says that men that become women are not allowed to participate in women tournaments UNTIL FIDE decides whether or not to give them permission to and this decision will take a maximum of 2 years. This is to prevent men from abusing the policy.

The poster also misquoted the FIDE report.

SoupSailor72
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
MightierQ wrote:

Seriously, are people really claiming men are inherently better at chess than women?

Women make up only 28% of the workforce in science, technology, engineering and math (STEM). https://www.aauw.org/resources/research/the-stem-gap/

There are clearly a lot of underlying issues preventing women for pursing STEM. I expect some of those issues apply to women in chess as well. It's not that men are inherently better in STEM... possibly, it's that women are systemically disadvantaged.

FIDE is respecting gender markers on IDs... this is a good thing. Unfortunately, not all countries will allow this. I hope FIDE will come up with a solution to allow for such changes if an individual's country does not allow such changes.

the fact the chess situation has improved considerably since the polgar days for women yet their presence in top chess remains negligible heavily points agaisnt te systemic oppression narrative.
Judith proved women can be top 10 players but the severe lack of women at 2650 level gives much credence to biological gender differences.
And why should this be surprising? Women and men have roughly the same IQ but men are more extreme in the scatter plot on both ends. This is one of Dr peterson's many important points. Take violent individuals. If you look at most violent people the distribution will favor men over women by some reasonable ratio but if you focus on the top 1 percentile of aggressors, virtually ALL are males.
the exact same distribution happens in chess capability most likely. At the lower levels? prob no huge diffference other than a modest advantage to men in spatial reasoning. At the top 0.3 percentile that is super GM's? all men
men are the extreme gender.To think there is zero difference between male and female brains is super unscientific

Unproven, but seems very intuitive. I think that even if women had the same muscle mass as men, it's likely there would still be more males at the top of physical sports. We also know that men tend to be more ultra-competitive than women.

So unless transgenders actually have a brain structure in line with their chosen gender, this makes at least somewhat sensible.

Then there is the question of whether chess should be separated by gender in the first place. If you accept that it should, I think the original FIDE ruling should make perfect sense.

chesslover0003
SoupSailor72 wrote:

Then there is the question of whether chess should be separated by gender in the first place. If you accept that it should, I think the original FIDE ruling should make perfect sense.

FYI... I believe the comment you're referring to is from @darkunorthodox88. I do not agree with their comments. I'm not aware of any FIDE presentation or article that supports the claims made.

The FIDE presentation regarding gender gaps in chess... "participation explains most, but not all, of the performance gap" and there is "some evidence biological factors affect the gap, but we don’t know exactly what, or how much". I believe this is aligned with the study I shared regarding women in STEM.

I support FIDE recognizing gender identities of players. Perhaps it's reasonable that they recognize the gender markers on the players identification to avoid abuse. My concern is that some countries do not allow such changes and I hope FIDE could allow for exceptions in those cases.

ghstndshll
MightierQ wrote:I'm saying historically there's no apparent correlation between a person's being transgender (or cisgender) and their lifelong hormone levels. 

I think you are wrong. I know two common ways that doctors diagnose gender dysphoria, one is doing brain imaging, because despite some antiscientific propaganda men and females have different brains. The structure is the same but the proportions are different, there are a few parts that men have bigger in the brain and just a bigger brain generally, and women have only one part of the brain bigger than men which is the corpus callosum, the commissure of the cerebral hemispheres. The second most common test that I am aware of for gender dysphoria is checking hormone levels in the blood, this is the way they classify men vs females at the olympics afaik, and it can get you disqualified for doing some testosterone-boosting steroids because women on such steroids can beat all the other women almost like a man can, and doing transitioning in sports is almost exactly the same just in the other way, men can transition and lower his testosterone but his body and brain were already built with a very high level of this hormones, so he can pass blood tests but it is still not fair and he will have big upper-hand against women, this is why it shouldn't be respected or even considered.

lfPatriotGames

What I think is interesting is that it's 2023. Men have landed on the moon. Computers are everywhere. Technology is increasing at rate probably faster than at any time in human history. Knowledge is everywhere and easily accessible.

And some people are just now realizing that men and women are different. They have different physical qualities, different mental qualities, different chemical and biological compositions. And yet a primitive caveman from 10,000 years ago could have told the modern day confused person this.

HelloChessNuts
lfPatriotGames wrote:

And some people are just now realizing that men and women are different. They have different physical qualities, different mental qualities, different chemical and biological compositions.

Depends on the woman.

lfPatriotGames
HelloChessNuts wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:

And some people are just now realizing that men and women are different. They have different physical qualities, different mental qualities, different chemical and biological compositions.

Depends on the woman.

I suppose. She was in the series "Y-the last man". A story about how all mammals with a Y chromosome all died off, except one man. Trans "men", however, survived because they did not have a Y chromosome.

This forum topic has been locked